Japanese China and the "imperial" titles

[John I of Brazil]

Hello.

While we translate some foreign titles, calling sovereigns from different nations "kings" or "emperors", their meanings could not be more different. This is quite evident when you see the concepts of "emperor" in China and in Japan.

In China, the title of "emperor" (皇帝, Huángdì) historically represented supreme authority over a vast empire, often seen as the "Son of Heaven" ruling by the Mandate of Heaven. The Chinese emperor was regarded as the pinnacle of power, with a highly centralized government and a bureaucratic system. The emperor's role was deeply intertwined with Confucian ideology, emphasizing virtues such as benevolence and righteousness. This ins encapsulated by the concept of Mandate of Heaven.

In Japan, the concept of "emperor" (天皇, Tennō) also carries significant cultural and religious significance. However, the role of the Japanese emperor historically differed from that of the Chinese emperor. The Japanese emperor was traditionally seen as a symbolic figurehead, with actual political power residing in the hands of shoguns and other ruling elites. The Japanese imperial institution was influenced by Shinto beliefs, with the emperor often regarded as a divine descendant of the sun goddess Amaterasu.

So, in a situation where a Japanese shogunate managed to conquer China (and Korea too, probably), how would they deal with these differences?

My idea was that the title of Emperor of China would be merged with the one of the shogun, since both are political positions "common" mortals can rise to.

The emperor of Japan is much more of a religious figure, whose legitimacy derives from being descendant of gods, and thus godly, rather than merely favoured by deities. So I think these "emperors" would be treated more as gods than as rulers, and the shoguns/"emperors of China" would revere them.

However, I want to know what do you think, since I am not at all sure about this topic. Tell me your thoughts.

 

[walmart]

My idea was that the title of Emperor of China would be merged with the one of the shogun, since both are political positions "common" mortals can rise to.

I never thought of that. I always figured that the Japanese emperor would just become the emperor of China as well. I hope that the english translation for both titles is different in such ATL.

 

[Avrorrange]

Hello.

While we translate some foreign titles, calling sovereigns from different nations "kings" or "emperors", their meanings could not be more different. This is quite evident when you see the concepts of "emperor" in China and in Japan.

In China, the title of "emperor" (皇帝, Huángdì) historically represented supreme authority over a vast empire, often seen as the "Son of Heaven" ruling by the Mandate of Heaven. The Chinese emperor was regarded as the pinnacle of power, with a highly centralized government and a bureaucratic system. The emperor's role was deeply intertwined with Confucian ideology, emphasizing virtues such as benevolence and righteousness. This ins encapsulated by the concept of Mandate of Heaven.

In Japan, the concept of "emperor" (天皇, Tennō) also carries significant cultural and religious significance. However, the role of the Japanese emperor historically differed from that of the Chinese emperor. The Japanese emperor was traditionally seen as a symbolic figurehead, with actual political power residing in the hands of shoguns and other ruling elites. The Japanese imperial institution was influenced by Shinto beliefs, with the emperor often regarded as a divine descendant of the sun goddess Amaterasu.

So, in a situation where a Japanese shogunate managed to conquer China (and Korea too, probably), how would they deal with these differences?

My idea was that the title of Emperor of China would be merged with the one of the shogun, since both are political positions "common" mortals can rise to.

The emperor of Japan is much more of a religious figure, whose legitimacy derives from being descendant of gods, and thus godly, rather than merely favoured by deities. So I think these "emperors" would be treated more as gods than as rulers, and the shoguns/"emperors of China" would revere them.

However, I want to know what do you think, since I am not at all sure about this topic. Tell me your thoughts.

There wouldn‘t have to have any need to reconcile any differences. The title of 天皇 literally came from China itself, created by Emperor Gaozong of Tang and Wu Zetian as a title superior to the title of 皇帝.It was seen as a ridiculous attempt to claim that they were superiors to emperors from before, including said individual’s own father and grandfather. The latter rulers were utterly embarrassed by the title, and so it never latched on.Somehow the Japanese took up this ridiculous title instead….The title has since been seen as one and the same.

Nevertheless, there is absolutely no chance that the title of Emperor of China would merge with that of the shogun because there‘s too much significance in the title. On many occasions, the Emperor of Japan himself de jure bowed to the Emperor of China as a vassal. The title of 皇帝 simply had too much significance to it. It literally meant sovereign. To use the title of Huangdi meant that you are no longer a government official.

There are many titles in China equivalent to the title of Shogun,including 假皇帝(in modern Chinese it meant fake emperor, but it originally meant stand in emperor/viceroy, and was the title used by Wang Meng before his usurpation of the throne), 相國(Grand chancellor).

A more ‘appropriate way’ to do things would be to have the 天皇 enfeoff the shogun as 夏王(King of Xia),以中原十三州建夏國(creation of the vassal Kingdom of Xia based on all thirteen provinces of China with you as it’s king), 相國(Grand Imperial Chancellor),錄尚書事(Head of the Imperial Secretariat),天策上將軍(Generalissimo of Divine Strategy, the title borne by Emperor Taizong of Tang before he became emperor),上國柱( Pillar of the State),都督中外諸軍事(Commander in Chief over all forces), 開府儀同三司(authority to open up a government department/bureau at your service paid by the state, aka creating a bakufu), 劍履上殿(permission to carry a sword and not take off your shoes in front of the emperor),入朝不趨(take your time to walk in front of the emperor)贊拜不名(outlawing all attempts to directly address said person by name in writing or word, if you have to address said person, you must do so by their title, usually a privilege of the emperor).

With these collection of titles and privileges, you are almost an emperor, much better than a mere shogun.

 

[John I of Brazil]

There wouldn‘t have to have any need to reconcile any differences. The title of 天皇 literally came from China itself, created by Emperor Gaozong of Tang and Wu Zetian as a title superior to the title of 皇帝.It was seen as a ridiculous attempt to claim that they were superiors to emperors from before, including said individual’s own father and grandfather. It was seen as a ridiculous move by later rulers, and so it never latched on.Instead somehow the Japanese took up this ridiculous title instead….The title has since been seen as one and the same.

Nevertheless, there is absolutely no chance that the title of Emperor of China would merge with that of the shogun because there‘s too much significance in the title. On many occasions, the Emperor of Japan himself de jure bowed to the Emperor of China as a vassal. The title of 皇帝 simply had too much significance to it. It literally meant sovereign. To use the title of Huangdi meant that you are no longer a government official.

There are many titles in China equivalent to the title of Shogun,including 假皇帝(in modern Chinese it meant fake emperor, but it originally meant stand in emperor/viceroy, and was the title used by Wang Meng before his usurpation of the throne), 相國(Grand chancellor).A more appropriate way to do things would be to have the 天皇 enfeof the shogun as 夏王(King of Xia),以中原十三州建夏國(creation of the vassal Kingdom of Xia based on all thirteen provinces of China), 相國(Grand Imperial Chancellor),上國柱上將軍(Generalissimo who is the Pillar of the State),都督中外諸軍事(Commander in Chief over all forces), 開府儀同三司(authority to open up a government staff/bureau paid by the state), 劍履上殿(permission to carry a sword in front of the emperor),入朝不趨(take your time to walk in front of the emperor，贊拜不名(outlawing all attempts to directly address said person by name in writing or word, if you have to address said person, you must do so by their title).

My worries were less about the titles themselves and more about their connotations and legitimacy. China's sovereigns ruled based on Confucian principles and need to keep heaven's favour, otherwise they are screwed.

In contrast, the Mikado is holy because he is a descendant from gods, so his position can not be taken so easily. Despite their Chinese influence, the Japanese never really adopted these Confucian ideas of mandate for their "heavenly rulers".

Thus, my idea to reconcile it would be for the idea of Mandate of Heaven to be transferred to the shogun, as he would be the one in need of heaven's favor to keep his power. The Mikado needs not, because his holiness comes from his ancestry.

 

[Avrorrange]

My worries were less about the titles themselves and more about their connotations and legitimacy. China's sovereigns ruled based on Confucian principles and need to keep heaven's favour, otherwise they are screwed.

In contrast, the Mikado is holy because he is a descendant from gods, so his position can not be taken so easily. Despite their Chinese influence, the Japanese never really adopted these Confucian ideas of mandate for their "heavenly rulers".

Thus, my idea to reconcile it would be for the idea of Mandate of Heaven to be transferred to the shogun, as he would be the one in need of heaven's favor to keep his power. The Mikado needs not, because his holiness comes from his ancestry.

The whole point of those titles is to say screw the mandate of heaven, I am the one who is really ruling. I can take the mandate whenever I like, but I am so humble that I will still symbolically defer to the guy and do his work for him instead.All of the emperors of China from Cao Pi to Zhu Wen took the aforementioned collection of titles in various forms before they became emperor proper.

Also, the whole point of the Emperor of China is that there should never have been a superior or equal to him. A Emperor who has a feudal superior is no true emperor.The Emperors of the Song Dynasty have been repeatedly derided as illegitimate emperors for the very fact that they have acknowledged others as fellow emperors or even submitted to them as vassals.

 

[kasumigenx]

The Chinese and Japanese Emperors are supposed to be called as Sir in English (Don in Spanish and Dom in Portugal) in their personal names not Emperor as their temple and era names are treated as Regnal names in their languages, the issue is that Sir is only used for Minor lords.

 

[Avrorrange]

The Chinese and Japanese Emperors are supposed to be called as Sir in English (Don in Spanish and Dom in Portugal) in their personal names not Emperor as their temple and era names are treated as Regnal names in their languages, the issue is that Sir is only used for Minor lords.

Err no. They aren’t addressed in anyway in their personal names at all. It’s literally treason to call the emperors by their personal names. They are just referred to in rough equivalence of Your Majesty, His Majesty ,His Holiness, Your Holiness, First Magistrate etc. Temple names, era names and Posthumous names are a way to refer to them without committing treason by writing/voice their personal names.

 

[kasumigenx]

Err no. They aren’t addressed in anyway in their personal names at all. It’s literally treason to call the emperors by their personal names. They are just referred to in rough equivalence of Your Majesty, His Majesty ,His Holiness, Your Holiness, First Magistrate etc. Temple names, era names and Posthumous names are a way to refer to them without committing treason by writing/voice their personal names.

In their countries but in foreign countries, I think they should be called Sir or Honorable(Dom or Don in Portuguese and Spanish) in their Personal names.

 

[SevenResurrection]

IIRC Hideyoshi planned to assign then reigning Emperor Go-Yozei to be Emperor of China and move him to Beijing while Go-Yozei's son will be Emperor of Japan. Meanwhile his Kampaku title will be placed above both (unofficially).

 

[Avrorrange]

IIRC Hideyoshi planned to assign then reigning Emperor Go-Yozei to be Emperor of China and move him to Beijing while Go-Yozei's son will be Emperor of Japan. Meanwhile his Kampaku title will be placed above both (unofficially).

Uncultured peasant scum. He should have just had the emperor declared him 夏王,以中原十三州建夏國, 相國,錄尚書事,天策上將軍,上國柱,都督中外諸軍事, 開府儀同三司, 劍履上殿,入朝不趨,贊拜不名, as well as Kampaku. That would have meant that his personal relationship with China would be that of a master and lord, not that of an official serving on behalf of the emperor. Remember how Augustus in the West made Egypt his personal possession? It would have the same effect if he declared himself King of China under the emperor.

 

[Avrorrange]

I think King of Tang(唐王) has a nice ring to it too seeing as the Japanese loved referring to China as Tang long after the Tang Dynasty had ended.

 

[Declan]

The Shogun is technically subservient to the Japanese emperor.
To avoid any awkwardness, the Shogun could decree the Mandate of Heaven be transfered to the Japanese Emperor using the claim that he conquered for him. Then the two exist in personal union.

 

[SevenResurrection]

Just reread my source again. It actually wasn't Kampaku. Hideyoshi planned to gave away Kampaku title to Hidetsugu. Not sure what title he gonna use but:

From The Imjin War by Samuel Hawley
In sum, then, Hideyoshi foresaw the Korean campaign soon drawing to a close. In the coming weeks he hoped to cross over to that country to take personal command of his armies for the big push on to Beijing. Then would begin the task of organizing his nascent empire and putting a new administration in place. Korea would become in effect a fourth island in the Japanese archipelago, with either Hashiba Hidekatsu or Ukita Hideie at the helm in Seoul. (Hashiba was currently leading the ninth contingent in Korea and Ukita the eighth.) Hidetsugu, presently kampaku of Japan and thus second only to Hideyoshi, would assume the loftier position of kampaku of China, with a new kampaku being appointed to take command solely of Japan. Emperor Go-Yozei would be installed in Beijing’s Forbidden City as emperor of China, and his son and heir would assume the now-subsidiary role of emperor of Japan.

And what of Hideyoshi himself? What would his role be in this huge empire, the largest the world had ever seen? First he would remain for a time in Beijing. Then he would appoint a deputy to stay there in his place, while he himself would settle in a permanent residence at the southern port city of Ningpo, where the Chinese mainland comes closest to Japan. In these comfortable semitropical surroundings he would simply exist as the taiko, the kingmaker and puppet master, the omnipotent being who sat quietly to the side, controlling everything, missing nothing, governing the governors with a firm but generally benign hand.

 

[Arkenfolm]

My worries were less about the titles themselves and more about their connotations and legitimacy. China's sovereigns ruled based on Confucian principles and need to keep heaven's favour, otherwise they are screwed.

In contrast, the Mikado is holy because he is a descendant from gods, so his position can not be taken so easily. Despite their Chinese influence, the Japanese never really adopted these Confucian ideas of mandate for their "heavenly rulers".

There was a rough equivalent of the mandate of heaven in Japan (albeit more inspired by Buddhism and especially indigenous Shinto views), it just said the Emperor would lose his power because he appointed bad ministers and he himself was too lazy to correct the situation. But because rule of Japan was a gift to his family, the situation could be reversed. This was the philosophy of 14th century scholar Kitabatake Chikafusa who unsurprisingly was a leading figure in the Kenmu Restoration, but it lived on long after him because he was also one of the foremost scholars on Shinto.

Thus, my idea to reconcile it would be for the idea of Mandate of Heaven to be transferred to the shogun, as he would be the one in need of heaven's favor to keep his power. The Mikado needs not, because his holiness comes from his ancestry.

The thing is, there cannot be "two suns in the heavens" as it was said. It was scandalous for Ashikaga Yoshimitsu to accept the title "King of Japan" from the Ming emperor, but that was a necessary situation for Japan to freely trade with China since it protected the Emperor from a demeaning situation of submitting to the Ming as the Vietnamese rulers had to do. The idea of there being two emperors is simply nonsense from a Chinese standpoint, hence why it was only ever done at the end of long wars like the Jin-Song wars.

So this act would devalue both titles and ensure even less legitimacy in China for the Japanese.

IIRC Hideyoshi planned to assign then reigning Emperor Go-Yozei to be Emperor of China and move him to Beijing while Go-Yozei's son will be Emperor of Japan. Meanwhile his Kampaku title will be placed above both (unofficially).

I'm sure would've ended well. Now there would be a "Western Court" in China and an "Eastern Court" in Japan and the Japanese emperor of China could re-enact the Mongol invasions to ensure the submission of his brother/cousin/nephew/whatever.

It would probably not be a long-lived dynasty.

 

[Evil Crusader]

I too think there would be just one Imperial title, based in China, with two separate commands below. The Chinese title is that much more influential, who would want to discard it? At any rate, when and how this happen also changed how the relationship would be spelled out, but I think the broad strokes are such that the Chinese Mandate retains its primacy.

 

[John I of Brazil]

There was a rough equivalent of the mandate of heaven in Japan (albeit more inspired by Buddhism and especially indigenous Shinto views), it just said the Emperor would lose his power because he appointed bad ministers and he himself was too lazy to correct the situation. But because rule of Japan was a gift to his family, the situation could be reversed. This was the philosophy of 14th century scholar Kitabatake Chikafusa who unsurprisingly was a leading figure in the Kenmu Restoration, but it lived on long after him because he was also one of the foremost scholars on Shinto.

Interesting. Does this philosophy have a name? Now I can see how they could conciliate the two worldviews, though one could imagine if/how it could affect China's ideology itself, depending on how much time the Japanese rule in China remains.

 

[Simeon]

Does this philosophy have a name?

It had been more of a legalese than a slogan when Kitabatake Chikafusa penned it, really.

 

[sarapen]

In their countries but in foreign countries, I think they should be called Sir or Honorable(Dom or Don in Portuguese and Spanish) in their Personal names.

It would be a diplomatic insult to refer to a monarch as a mere don. In Spanish they would be "Su Majestad" (Your Majesty) or "Alteza" (Highness) same as in English. I believe you can also use "Señor" (Sire), though.

 

[Aluma]

It would be a diplomatic insult to refer to a monarch as a mere don. In Spanish they would be "Su Majestad" (Your Majesty) or "Alteza" (Highness) same as in English. I believe you can also use "Señor" (Sire), though.

Same for the portuguese - "sua majestade" "sua alteza" "senhor" - but thats for refering to the monarch directly, saying the king did this or Dom João did that in the third person was alright I believe

 

[kasumigenx]

It would be a diplomatic insult to refer to a monarch as a mere don. In Spanish they would be "Su Majestad" (Your Majesty) or "Alteza" (Highness) same as in English. I believe you can also use "Señor" (Sire), though.

Same for the portuguese - "sua majestade" "sua alteza" "senhor" - but thats for refering to the monarch directly, saying the king did this or Dom João did that in the third person was alright I believe

Senhor/Señor is what I really mean to say, and it is affixed before the name, Sire and His Majesty replaces the name completely.