Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
How can be both Quingophile and KMTophile? It's like being Bourbonphile and Revolutionphile. Or are you also Maophile?
On eastern shores – A Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Alcsentre Calanice
- Start date
How can be both Quingophile and KMTophile? It's like being Bourbonphile and Revolutionphile. Or are you also Maophile?
Mao triggers me. That commnist motherfucker pisses me off.
Also, It works. Trust me.
Fuck the bourbons. Fuck the revolution. Napoleons a lad.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
You said nothing of any substance but let it be, it's not the subject of the thread.
No idea. I think he's lost on the story of where to go he said?
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
As long as we believe it lives it will live! Have some faith!
He (he always speaks of himself in the third person) has lost some enthusiasm. Maybe he'll write more, but he has to think about it.
Hmm, well if you need ideas think of something that sounds utterly outlandish but isn't too outlandish in reality.
Like I dunno, Rome trying to conquer the Kingdoms to the immediate south of Egypt? Or maybe try and do something with those "Companies", maybe have a third one along the Atlantic coast near Tingis? Heck even one on the coasts of Germania in order to exploit the Baltic's rich amounts of Amber?
Although I gotta say the idea of these Roman Companies are good ones, they leave a lot of possibilities for things.
Like I dunno, Rome trying to conquer the Kingdoms to the immediate south of Egypt? Or maybe try and do something with those "Companies", maybe have a third one along the Atlantic coast near Tingis? Heck even one on the coasts of Germania in order to exploit the Baltic's rich amounts of Amber?
Although I gotta say the idea of these Roman Companies are good ones, they leave a lot of possibilities for things.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
I pulled myself up and wrote some lines. Hope you enjoy the update.
======
Liber Septimus: A Golden Age
In the year when Gaius Iunius Tiberianus and Imperator Caesar Lucius Septimius Augustus for the seventh time were consuls, Rome experienced one of the greatest moments of its political, economic and cultural power: the Persian border was quiet, the Germanic tribes showed no alarming activity and the Gothic Kingdom had been destroyed; like under Augustus and Trajan, the gods protected the empire and favored it with peace, fertility and wealth.
I therefore decided to present a summary of Lucius' Empire (Breviarium or Summarium Totius Imperii Lucii) of the year 1034 [1] I extracted from the official records that survived from these times.
Titulus I. Geography
The empire is Rome, and Rome is the empire. The agglomeration of Rome is only one of many urban centers within the Empire – but the city of Rome as a polis is much larger. Every free inhabitant of the empire is citizen of Rome, and from a certain point of view, one can say that the word Rome in fact became synonymous with the term Roman Empire; Rome has finally implemented the Stoic dream of all humans being kosmopolitês, “citizen of the cosmos”.
Rome never gave up their dream to conquer the world, a dream that was presented as Rome's holy mission by Vergilius (imperium sine fine). However, the geographic progress made after the conquest of Mesopotamia and the subsequent contact with the Indian and Chinese cultural universe made clear that Rome did neither control the whole inhabitated world (oikouménē)nor even its major part. Though, the Romans could still claim that they were the only representatives of the (true) civilized world.
The Roman Empire stretches from Hibernia in the north to Egypt in the south, and from Mauretania in the west to Babylonia in the east. In the west, the ocean is a natural border and an insurmountable wall, since the distance from China to Gaul calculated by geographers is much to great to be traveled by a large army at sea. On the other borders however, Rome isn't that blessed by nature.
Mauretania is separated from the Gaetuli and other Berber tribes by the Atlas mountain range, but the province of Africa has to be defended by forts established in the Libyan desert, where Rome protects the trading city of Garama and the different outposts controlling the Trans-Saharan Trade. Similarly, Roman Egypt has no clear border with Nubia (called Kingdom of Kush by its inhabitants); on the Nile, the Roman administrative power ends after the Second Cataract.
In Arabia, the situation is even more unclear. On the one hand, we have the southern border of the Roman provinces of Arabia and Mesopotamia. But on the coasts of Arabia, the Asian Company has set up its own provinces and protectorates. Inner Arabia is controlled neither directly nor indirectly by Rome, but many tribes are client states, allies or trading partners of the Company. However, those peoples hostile to allies of Rome often seek alliances with Persia or other enemies of Rome.
Rome's eastern border, that runs along the Zagros Mountains, is a clear line established in detail by the various Roman-Parthian and Roman-Sassanian Peace treaties. The border is marked by boundary stones and closely monitored by border posts to prevent both economic crimes and infiltration by Persian spies. This border is, because of the threatening Persian military, one of the best guarded of all.
On the Black Sea, Rome shares no direct border with the steppe, since its armies aren't adapted to the mobile warfare of the nomads. Instead, it uses various client states, especially in the Caucasus, to insulate its provinces. Thus, while Germanic, Greek and Sarmatian protectorates are subject to attacks from the north, the Roman provinces can develop peacefully and prosper.
In the north, Rome uses the Rhine and the Danube as natural borders and protecting frontiers. The territory Rome conquered beyond these rivers, like Alemannia in southern Germania, Iazygia in Panonnia or Dacia is protected by a chain of watchtowers, palisades and forts known as the limes (the border). The limes however isn't a static defense line like the Chinese walls, but a frontier line controlling trade and migration.
[1] 281 CE
======
Liber Septimus: A Golden Age
In the year when Gaius Iunius Tiberianus and Imperator Caesar Lucius Septimius Augustus for the seventh time were consuls, Rome experienced one of the greatest moments of its political, economic and cultural power: the Persian border was quiet, the Germanic tribes showed no alarming activity and the Gothic Kingdom had been destroyed; like under Augustus and Trajan, the gods protected the empire and favored it with peace, fertility and wealth.
I therefore decided to present a summary of Lucius' Empire (Breviarium or Summarium Totius Imperii Lucii) of the year 1034 [1] I extracted from the official records that survived from these times.
Titulus I. Geography
The empire is Rome, and Rome is the empire. The agglomeration of Rome is only one of many urban centers within the Empire – but the city of Rome as a polis is much larger. Every free inhabitant of the empire is citizen of Rome, and from a certain point of view, one can say that the word Rome in fact became synonymous with the term Roman Empire; Rome has finally implemented the Stoic dream of all humans being kosmopolitês, “citizen of the cosmos”.
Rome never gave up their dream to conquer the world, a dream that was presented as Rome's holy mission by Vergilius (imperium sine fine). However, the geographic progress made after the conquest of Mesopotamia and the subsequent contact with the Indian and Chinese cultural universe made clear that Rome did neither control the whole inhabitated world (oikouménē)nor even its major part. Though, the Romans could still claim that they were the only representatives of the (true) civilized world.
The Roman Empire stretches from Hibernia in the north to Egypt in the south, and from Mauretania in the west to Babylonia in the east. In the west, the ocean is a natural border and an insurmountable wall, since the distance from China to Gaul calculated by geographers is much to great to be traveled by a large army at sea. On the other borders however, Rome isn't that blessed by nature.
Mauretania is separated from the Gaetuli and other Berber tribes by the Atlas mountain range, but the province of Africa has to be defended by forts established in the Libyan desert, where Rome protects the trading city of Garama and the different outposts controlling the Trans-Saharan Trade. Similarly, Roman Egypt has no clear border with Nubia (called Kingdom of Kush by its inhabitants); on the Nile, the Roman administrative power ends after the Second Cataract.
In Arabia, the situation is even more unclear. On the one hand, we have the southern border of the Roman provinces of Arabia and Mesopotamia. But on the coasts of Arabia, the Asian Company has set up its own provinces and protectorates. Inner Arabia is controlled neither directly nor indirectly by Rome, but many tribes are client states, allies or trading partners of the Company. However, those peoples hostile to allies of Rome often seek alliances with Persia or other enemies of Rome.
Rome's eastern border, that runs along the Zagros Mountains, is a clear line established in detail by the various Roman-Parthian and Roman-Sassanian Peace treaties. The border is marked by boundary stones and closely monitored by border posts to prevent both economic crimes and infiltration by Persian spies. This border is, because of the threatening Persian military, one of the best guarded of all.
On the Black Sea, Rome shares no direct border with the steppe, since its armies aren't adapted to the mobile warfare of the nomads. Instead, it uses various client states, especially in the Caucasus, to insulate its provinces. Thus, while Germanic, Greek and Sarmatian protectorates are subject to attacks from the north, the Roman provinces can develop peacefully and prosper.
In the north, Rome uses the Rhine and the Danube as natural borders and protecting frontiers. The territory Rome conquered beyond these rivers, like Alemannia in southern Germania, Iazygia in Panonnia or Dacia is protected by a chain of watchtowers, palisades and forts known as the limes (the border). The limes however isn't a static defense line like the Chinese walls, but a frontier line controlling trade and migration.
[1] 281 CE
I love how the update was posted the minute I got in the thread today to see if anything was going on. Also good update.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
Titulus II. Economy, Technology and Scientific Life
The Roman economy of these days is, like every other economy using the technology of the Iron Age, based on agriculture. Since agricultural technique aren't very elaborate, the major part of Roman society is occupied in the primary sector of economy, to satisfy basic human needs. Most notably, both Egypt's and North Africa's grain is used to feed Rome, the most populous city in the world.
Most agricultural work is done on great estates (latifundia), mostly owned by members of the senatorial aristocracy. Latifundia dominate the economy in Italy, Greece, Sicily, Africa and southern Gaul, whereas smaller property is more common in other parts of the empire. After the Punic Wars, slaves carried out the greatest share of the work on the estates, but their number declined since the Augustan peace. Now, under emperor Lucius, many land owners (patronus or dominus) lease their land to free citizens, working as indentured tenants (coloni).
Besides the aristocracy, the most important economic actor in the Roman Empire is the emperor. The first Severan emperors had nationalized the mining sector, and Lucius perpetuates his ancestors' policy. Inspired by the laws of the Han Dynasty, salt and iron, but also gold, silver, copper and other metals are state monopolies; mining and processing of the ore are exclusively public tasks managed by imperial officials, and the profits serve to fill the Empire's coffers.
The greatest part of the production takes place in the cities. Large factories, either owned by the state or holding a public license, compete with craftsmen working in small, primitive workshops. Craftsmen are often united into guilds (collegia or sodalitates), which are closely supervised by the state, among others for fiscal purposes. The state mistrust independent business, but has no other choice than tolerating it, since available technology doesn't allow for a planned economy.
Trade and banking, as production, are at their core still quite primitive due to early technology and often run by single businessmen, often equites. However, in contrast to pre-Severan times, companies play an important role in Roman economy. Individual merchants have formed larger companies (sodalitates marcatorum), forcing tradesmen in other regions to do the same.
The state supported this evolution, if only to control cash flows and to pass public tasks (like protecting trade routes) on private militias. Under Lucius, the early economic centralization reaches its climax – impressed by the success of the Maeotian Company, Lucius decides to start a process of economic centralization and rationalization: Each region should receive its own company, regulating the trade with Rome's neighbors by concentrating mercantile capital.
Lucius founded two new companies: firstly the African Company based at Leptis Magna, which leads the trade with Agysimba and the Hesperidian Ethiopians (buying slaves, tropical wood and exotic animals), making games (like animal chases) and constructions cheaper and the occupation of North Africa more profitable; secondly, the Maeotian Company, trading with Scythia through the rivers (mainly using theBorysthenes [1] and Tanais [2]) and with the tribes of the north (importing amber, fur, slaves and wood); the emperor is the principal shareholder of these companies.
The Office of Trade, inspired by Wang Mang's economic adjustment agency, regulates foreign trade and directs the companies. On the recommendation of the same Office, the Alexandrian and the Indian Company fused to form the large and mighty Eastern Company. Lucius, concerned about economic stability, also regulated the market for financial assets:
To prevent speculation and the financial panics of previous years, Lucius decided that shares of the three companies should be traded only in Byzantion, which received a large basilica, becoming Rome's first stock exchange. However, Antiochia, Leptis Magna and Chersonesos remained important markets for the goods of the different companies, while Alexandria, Carthage, Ostia and Charax became ports of secondary importance.
The Severan emperors, including Lucius, realized that technological backwardness obstructed the implementation of many of their ideas. For example, Lucius accelerated the creation of the first paper manufactory in the Roman Empire. Paper, developed in China in 858 AUC [3], is a quite new product and came to Rome in the last 150 years. Before being adopted by the Romans, it had to prove its usefulness.
Unfortunately, the Severan emperors didn't realize that technological progress in specialized sectors needs general progress and research. Thus, it is not surprising that philosophical universities like the Platonic Academy in Athens, the Museion of Alexandria or the Museion of Charax (with the notable exception of military and medical research) aren't funded by the imperial government.
Accordingly, agricultural technological progress is pretty mediocre. Existing technologies, like the breast collar harness, the seed drill or the one wheel barrow (monokyklos), are gladly adopted by the managers of imperial estates, whereas new technology is often suppressed by the lack of competition and independent economy.
[1] Dnieper
[2] Volga
[3] 105 CE
The Roman economy of these days is, like every other economy using the technology of the Iron Age, based on agriculture. Since agricultural technique aren't very elaborate, the major part of Roman society is occupied in the primary sector of economy, to satisfy basic human needs. Most notably, both Egypt's and North Africa's grain is used to feed Rome, the most populous city in the world.
Most agricultural work is done on great estates (latifundia), mostly owned by members of the senatorial aristocracy. Latifundia dominate the economy in Italy, Greece, Sicily, Africa and southern Gaul, whereas smaller property is more common in other parts of the empire. After the Punic Wars, slaves carried out the greatest share of the work on the estates, but their number declined since the Augustan peace. Now, under emperor Lucius, many land owners (patronus or dominus) lease their land to free citizens, working as indentured tenants (coloni).
Besides the aristocracy, the most important economic actor in the Roman Empire is the emperor. The first Severan emperors had nationalized the mining sector, and Lucius perpetuates his ancestors' policy. Inspired by the laws of the Han Dynasty, salt and iron, but also gold, silver, copper and other metals are state monopolies; mining and processing of the ore are exclusively public tasks managed by imperial officials, and the profits serve to fill the Empire's coffers.
The greatest part of the production takes place in the cities. Large factories, either owned by the state or holding a public license, compete with craftsmen working in small, primitive workshops. Craftsmen are often united into guilds (collegia or sodalitates), which are closely supervised by the state, among others for fiscal purposes. The state mistrust independent business, but has no other choice than tolerating it, since available technology doesn't allow for a planned economy.
Trade and banking, as production, are at their core still quite primitive due to early technology and often run by single businessmen, often equites. However, in contrast to pre-Severan times, companies play an important role in Roman economy. Individual merchants have formed larger companies (sodalitates marcatorum), forcing tradesmen in other regions to do the same.
The state supported this evolution, if only to control cash flows and to pass public tasks (like protecting trade routes) on private militias. Under Lucius, the early economic centralization reaches its climax – impressed by the success of the Maeotian Company, Lucius decides to start a process of economic centralization and rationalization: Each region should receive its own company, regulating the trade with Rome's neighbors by concentrating mercantile capital.
Lucius founded two new companies: firstly the African Company based at Leptis Magna, which leads the trade with Agysimba and the Hesperidian Ethiopians (buying slaves, tropical wood and exotic animals), making games (like animal chases) and constructions cheaper and the occupation of North Africa more profitable; secondly, the Maeotian Company, trading with Scythia through the rivers (mainly using theBorysthenes [1] and Tanais [2]) and with the tribes of the north (importing amber, fur, slaves and wood); the emperor is the principal shareholder of these companies.
The Office of Trade, inspired by Wang Mang's economic adjustment agency, regulates foreign trade and directs the companies. On the recommendation of the same Office, the Alexandrian and the Indian Company fused to form the large and mighty Eastern Company. Lucius, concerned about economic stability, also regulated the market for financial assets:
To prevent speculation and the financial panics of previous years, Lucius decided that shares of the three companies should be traded only in Byzantion, which received a large basilica, becoming Rome's first stock exchange. However, Antiochia, Leptis Magna and Chersonesos remained important markets for the goods of the different companies, while Alexandria, Carthage, Ostia and Charax became ports of secondary importance.
The Severan emperors, including Lucius, realized that technological backwardness obstructed the implementation of many of their ideas. For example, Lucius accelerated the creation of the first paper manufactory in the Roman Empire. Paper, developed in China in 858 AUC [3], is a quite new product and came to Rome in the last 150 years. Before being adopted by the Romans, it had to prove its usefulness.
Unfortunately, the Severan emperors didn't realize that technological progress in specialized sectors needs general progress and research. Thus, it is not surprising that philosophical universities like the Platonic Academy in Athens, the Museion of Alexandria or the Museion of Charax (with the notable exception of military and medical research) aren't funded by the imperial government.
Accordingly, agricultural technological progress is pretty mediocre. Existing technologies, like the breast collar harness, the seed drill or the one wheel barrow (monokyklos), are gladly adopted by the managers of imperial estates, whereas new technology is often suppressed by the lack of competition and independent economy.
[1] Dnieper
[2] Volga
[3] 105 CE
Skallagrim
Banned
This last update really illustrates the benefits as well as the eventual drawbacks of a regimented, highly regulated economy with lots of monopolies and government interference. The kind of policy Rome is currently adhering to is very sensible in the short-to-mid-term. Indeed, the monopolies lead to steady income for the treasuries, the amalgation of merchants into guilds and larger companies makes administration and taxation much easier, etc.
Those benefits are also the major pitfall, of course. If this policy works so well (or at least seems to work so well), there will be little incentive to reform. In truth, the (very Roman!) focus on practical applications and the lack of funding for "abstract science" (for lack of a better catch-all term) will harm innovation severely in the long term. (It doesn't fit with the Roman mindset, but economically it of course would be much smarter to fund the abstract science, which is less likely to get private funding, and leave the funding of practical applications mostly to private investors.) The monopolies and guilds will, as such things always do, eventually lead to a lack of healthy competition, meaning there will be less incentive to innovate... and prices will be higher than they should ideally be. There are other eventual drawbacks as well, of course. The big danger is that the Romans of the time period did not have a kind of economic theory to explain such problems, or to find the source. Indeed, they may well try to "solve" the eventual economic problems arising from the current policy be implementing more state control. The notion that free competition, breaking up state (or state-sanctioned) monopolies and allowing tradesmen to operate outside of the guilds would solve most of the troubles will probably not occur to them.
So in general, the current economic policy looks as if it will be doing Rome a lot of good for the forseeable future, but will cause a lot of misery later on, in the future that is obviously not yet foreseen...
Those benefits are also the major pitfall, of course. If this policy works so well (or at least seems to work so well), there will be little incentive to reform. In truth, the (very Roman!) focus on practical applications and the lack of funding for "abstract science" (for lack of a better catch-all term) will harm innovation severely in the long term. (It doesn't fit with the Roman mindset, but economically it of course would be much smarter to fund the abstract science, which is less likely to get private funding, and leave the funding of practical applications mostly to private investors.) The monopolies and guilds will, as such things always do, eventually lead to a lack of healthy competition, meaning there will be less incentive to innovate... and prices will be higher than they should ideally be. There are other eventual drawbacks as well, of course. The big danger is that the Romans of the time period did not have a kind of economic theory to explain such problems, or to find the source. Indeed, they may well try to "solve" the eventual economic problems arising from the current policy be implementing more state control. The notion that free competition, breaking up state (or state-sanctioned) monopolies and allowing tradesmen to operate outside of the guilds would solve most of the troubles will probably not occur to them.
So in general, the current economic policy looks as if it will be doing Rome a lot of good for the forseeable future, but will cause a lot of misery later on, in the future that is obviously not yet foreseen...
Does Rome have any sort of contact with India besides trade? As they maintain a contact (tenuous normally, but still one) China, I thought that that they may have had contact on the diplomatic level with India or at least the South Indian triad of the Cheras, Pandyas and Cholas (less with the last one) with whom much of Rome's trade in India is taking place.
Alcsentre Calanice
Gone Fishin'
Well, there was some diplomacy even in OTL (Augustus hosted Indian envoys), especially with southern India. Some even speculate that Trajan met Kushan diplomats who persuaded him to attack Mesopotamia.
ITTL, there is obviously more diplomatic contact between Rome and Asia, but I'll write one or two things about Rome and the world in one of the next updates.
Glad to see this timeline ain't dead as a donger!
China is doing China things probably.
China is doing China things probably.
Damn you for giving me hope that this TL wasn't dead, then letting it dissolve like sugar in water.
Oooooh. Checked the date of the last reply. I'm so sorry. I'm so, so sorry.
GOT DAMN IT WASHINGTON
GOT DAMN IT WASHINGTON
Everyone is feeling this
(to be fair he was kicked for a good few weeks for whatever reason)
So if people are complaining about lack of life here why don't we contribute by discussing things itt?
I was thinking would Roman influence over the three client kingdoms along the Caucasus mountains lead to an easier defensive position against any power in the Iranian plateau? I'm saying this because in those kingdoms there is a large valley that are along both the Black sea and Caspian sea so instead of having to march march and march they would only have to march a little then get on boats and raid anywhere in Persia along the coasts right?