WI. What if there was no Thirty Years War?

[WILDGEESE]

What if there was no Thirty Years War?

The old Holy Roman Empire was virtually destroyed in the Thirty Years War with around a third of the population dying through conflict and famine.

Re: www.populstat.

German Population in 1700 19 million
German Population in 1700 26 million (with no war)
France Population in 1700 21 million
UK Population in 1700 8 million
Spain Population in 1700 8-9 million

What would be the effect on this regarding European politics?

Would the German speaking nations form one dominion more quickly than it originally did?

If so, would the larger population of a United Germany create a European power to rival France, Spain and the UK?

What effect on the world would this create in regards to Germany forging an Empire to rival France, Spain and the UK?, Could Australia or North America become German instead of British?

 

[PoeFacedKilla]

Ok, first thing is this: How the hell do you prevent the thirty years war?

You would have to have a POD in at least the 1400s because of the rise of protestantism which wasn't the only factor that led to war.

Assuming you can prevent it, it needs to be known that Germany wasn't unified before the war (all those little states had their own armies) it just got a little worse afterwards and led to the german states wanting to be able to better defend themselves and giving them more hatred towards the Habsburgs (which led to the rise of Prussia). I really don't see Germany being unified anytime between 1400 and 1800; although there are a few men in the 11-1300s that could have unified Germany Henry the Lion being my person of choice (although he would of had a difficult time he stands the best chance i think.)

Also the German principalities were quite happy with the way things were they weren't trying to become France so I really have no idea how a unified Germany would effect the world overall im not so sure they would be heavily militarized the reason they were in OTL was because Germany is descended from Prussia and Prussia began as a small nation playing in a big nations game so it needed more of its population and resources devoted towards the Army.

But then it is surrounded by France and Poland-Lithuania, two very large and powerful nations so it would have to have at least a deterrent-sized army; probably wouldn't get to much into the colonial game.

 

[Vingilótë]

During the Middle Ages, it was well within possibility for Germany to become a centralized state; particularly during the Hohenstaufen emperors.

 

[PoeFacedKilla]

During the Middle Ages, it was well within possibility for Germany to become a centralized state; particularly during the Hohenstaufen emperors.

i know, what i'm saying is that by the mid-1400s the Germans were quite happy with the status quo being able to elect the emperor and all and by the time they began distrusting the emperor to protect them their were to many rival German states to merge into one.

That's why they had to be slowly conquered into one state by Prussia.

 

[Blackfox5]

Ok, first thing is this: How the hell do you prevent the thirty years war?

There is bound to be some sort of conflict or even civil war, but there is no reason why Germany had to face virtual destruction where a third of the population died. Both Britain and France experienced religious conflict, but it never got so bad as in Germany. So "no Thirty Years War" does not mean "no war." Just that any such war lacks the destructive qualities of the historical war.

It's entirely possible that the Habsburgs might have won the war early before Sweden entered the conflict - before Gustavus Adolphus entered, they had practically won after all.

If Frederick V had given up after his defeat at White Mountain, or if he died during the battle, or if Ferdeninad II and he accepted some kind of deal where Frederick abdicated, but his family retained the Palatinate the war stood a very good chance of ending sometime in the 1620s. The war might have lasted only five, eight, or ten years.

The rest of the war would have been averted, and a new constitutional order increasing Habsburg centralized control yet preserving some sort of Protestantism in an increasing Catholic Germany would have become the new status quo.

 

[carlton_bach]

Absolutely. THe cause of the Thirty Years' War was not the Reformation or the rise of Lutheranism. THe HRE had found a modus vivendi to deal with that fairly quickly, and it could have obtained pretty much indefinitely (as indeed, it pretty much did for almost 200 years following 1648). THere would continue to be local conflicts, but without the willingness of Habsburg and Bavaria to start the big war, they never needed become more than the later confessional spats that provided Prussia and the United States so many German-speaking immigrants. .

The architecture of the HRE is a harder issue, but again, most people in it were reasonably happy. Without the war, it would continue as a non-functional entity providing an umbrelöly organisation for a set of states and statelets. It is hard to see how the consolidation of effectively sovereign territories within it would be prevented, but they would certainly look different. And the neighbours would likely continue to exert great influence.

 

[usertron2020]

Well, if this were the ASB forum I'd bring up the 1632verse...