Orville_third
Banned
Would it have prevented the rise Orthodoxy, to say nothing of the Roerich Movement and the Rasputniks in the West?
Would it have prevented the rise Orthodoxy, to say nothing of the Roerich Movement and the Rasputniks in the West?
If you mean the rise of the Orthodox dictatorship in the Ukraine(and the one that followed in Belarus).....it wouldn't be impossible, but hard to pull off; the reason that they even succeeded in the first place was mainly because of the success of the Soviet Revolution, and the aborted attempt to create the Ukrainian Worker's Soviet Republic in 1920.
The Rasputniks were largely a British & German phenomenon, and wouldn't have existed without Grisha Rasputin himself. Take him outta the picture and they'd be gone, too.
Only thing is, there WAS a Marxist state in Russia. It was called the Soviet Union, and it lasted from 1912 to 1990. Now, granted, it wasn't purely Communist for very long and became more socialist-lite(think of today's Finland) after WWII ended in the mid '40s, after a period of state capitalism(Stalin from 1925-38, then Kaganovich from '38 to '47.) but it still counts for something, even if it's pure Marxism period only lasted about 12 years or so(compare this to Zambia, which became full-on Communist after it's independence in 1959. It remained as such until 1992).
OOC: I hate to break it to you, but the OP clearly states that Russia fell to a Revolution, and the only viable Revolutionary movement in 1904 were the Communists, so.....
(At least the Nazis have been butterflied, though)
If a communist revolt overthrows the tsar there is going to be something in the Ukraine. Germany isn't going to want a hostile and polar opposite power several times its size on its front door, and Russia isn't powerful enough to stop them from doing what they want. OTL the only time the Russian were able to threaten the Ujraine dictatorship, and its twin in Belarus was while they thought Germany was too busy fighting its naval war with Britain. Given the pounding the German army gave them thanks to technological advances the Russians missed out on while rebuilding following five years of civil war it can be assumed the Germans are going to be keeping an eye on them carefully.
Eh, only to the point of Germany was where he started up his little cult. The fact it spread to Britain only once the Germans kicked him out you probably have a point here.
The Soviet Union was hardly Communist even before the Second World War. I'd go so far as to say that far right groups dominated for the latter half of the Union's history, as they do in modern-day Russia. Royalists (inspired by Nicholas II's survival of the revolution) even had a decent following after the Union's defeat in World War II. Despite not being nearly as devastating as the First World War, it forced Russia to cede Belarus and the Ukraine, which as stated above, fell to Orthodox dictatorships. The Soviet Union was only ever restricted to Russia and the Caucasus in the first place. How else could a Georgian like Uncle Joe come to power?
BTW, if you're looking for a good alt-history novel of an ATL World War I, check out Harry Turtledove's "Short Love" stories: the POD is actually in June of 1904, and in America of all places, but a damn good read, if you can go thru all 10 of the books. Spoilers: World War I gets delayed 10 years, Woodrow Wilson doesn't win in 1920(and doesn't die in office), nor runs in 1912, Adolf Hitler survives an ATL version of the Vienna Cafe Putsch, and Stalin lives until 1953.....
OOC: I'm sorry but I don't think far-right groups would even be *allowed* in the U.S.S.R., let alone dominate. Also, the Russian Empire didn't survive the war, therefore, the USSR also controlled Siberia as well.
Well, that was true, but only up until WWII; Then the Ukrainians got curbstomped, and the Western Tsar, as they called him, found himself staring down the barrel of Soviet rifles by the end of Oct. 1944. And then they spent the better half of 4 decades as a Soviet satellite, as did Belarus.
OOC: I'm sorry but I don't think far-right groups would even be *allowed* in the U.S.S.R., let alone get the chance to become dominant. Also, the Russian Empire didn't survive the war, or the Revolution, therefore, it stands that the USSR almost certainly would have controlled Siberia, and likely Kazakhstan with it, as well, if they took most of European Russia. Furthermore, the Ukraine was independent *before* World War II.
I'm sorry, but that sounds as implausible as almost every other book that Turtledove guy wrote. I had to look up Adolf Hitler and he couldn't have gotten any political power in Austria-Hungary. His "Austrian Workers' Party" never got more than a thousand members at its peak, despite the Deep Depression happening. Even then, that was several years before he got involved. There is NO way Hitler could have taken over that dying party and seized power. His little coup attempt in Vienna proved that.
Also, the World War happened when it did for a reason. If an analogue war doesn't happen within five years of that time, it probably wouldn't happen at all.
Well, that was true, but only up until WWII; Then the Ukrainians got curbstomped, and the Western Tsar, as they called him, found himself staring down the barrel of Soviet rifles by the end of Oct. 1944. And then they spent the better half of 4 decades as a Soviet satellite, as did Belarus.
The Soviet Union was hardly Communist even before the Second World War.
It's a lot more plausible than you'd think. I assume you haven't read all 10 books. I have.
OOC: why is this responding to me? I was saying Germany is going to back groups that will oppose the communists
I've always questioned this whole "Second World War" business that people like to mention. It was more like a series of small wars that tend to get conflated. You had Germany at war with the Russians, the British and the Turks. The British at war with Germany and Japan. Japan at war with Britain, China, and the United States. The United States at war with only Japan. ThevTurks at war with Austria-Hungary and Germany, etc. Austria, Japan, the United States, China, and Russia never acted outside their respective theater and weren't at war with most of the other major players. Sure casualties were three times those of the World War, but it was also spread out over almost ten years versus the three of the World War.
I couldn't get past the first. I don't know, maybe it is plausible, but I don't see how.
I've always questioned this whole "Second World War" business that people like to mention. It was more like a series of small wars that tend to get conflated. You had Germany at war with the Russians, the British and the Turks. The British at war with Germany and Japan. Japan at war with Britain, China, and the United States. The United States at war with only Japan. ThevTurks at war with Austria-Hungary and Germany, etc. Austria, Japan, the United States, China, and Russia never acted outside their respective theater and weren't at war with most of the other major players. Sure casualties were three times those of the World War, but it was also spread out over almost ten years versus the three of the World War.
Some call it the Second World War, some call it the Wars of 1938. The Americans call it the Patriotic War, the British call it the German Affair. Really, every nation has its own personal name for it.
Admittedly, the first one was a bit flawed in some respects. All the others are pretty good overall, though.
I'll concede that with Turtledove, the later books in the series are always more plausible and less arbitarily 'convergent' than the first few.
OOC: I don't think the U.S. would call it the "Patriotic War". Russia seems far more plausible, TBH.
IC: Actually, that was the Russians who called it the Patriotic War. We Americans just call it WWII.
Really? I've heard some of the more... well... "conservative" folk call it that. Like in President Olsen's infamous "Cold War Turns Hot" speech after the Aleutian Islands Incident. Thank God the Germans were able to mediate and prevent another major war.
I've always questioned this whole "Second World War" business that people like to mention. It was more like a series of small wars that tend to get conflated. You had Germany at war with the Russians, the British and the Turks. The British at war with Germany and Japan. Japan at war with Britain, China, and the United States. The United States at war with only Japan. ThevTurks at war with Austria-Hungary and Germany, etc. Austria, Japan, the United States, China, and Russia never acted outside their respective theater and weren't at war with most of the other major players. Sure casualties were three times those of the World War, but it was also spread out over almost ten years versus the three of the World War.
Because the combatants again were de-facto alligned into 2 camps and fighting each other.
The British were not officially at war with Austria-Hungary, but they just blockaded that Adriatic and sunk 3 Austrian dreadnaughts when they tried to make a dash for Salonika through the blockade to Bulgarian Waters. It was just diplomatic ease and financial reasons " No Mr. Banker, we are only at war with 1 country, nevermind the fact that all that countries allies shoot at us and won't trade with us, loan please " .
Also in America I've heard the terms " World War II, Patriotic War, and The Golden Gate War " Back to avenge the Golden Gate by '48 " .
IC: Some do, yeah, but it's not the official name. As for Mr. Olsen, he was probably the greatest politico to ever come out of Minnesota.....and Chancellor Goldmann(Social Democrats) deserves credit as well.