Thank you all, as always, for your responses to my latest update! Before I provide you all with my responses, I feel the need to address this thread on a few important matters:
Many of you are opining about how the "Religion vs. Science" debate will take shape ITTL. Now I
will discuss some of the major religious figures of this era and their stance on certain political issues (given their influence in certain parties and, of course, the impact of televangelism), to a certain extent. However, the scope of their appearances in this timeline will be limited. I remind everyone reading that the present-day tenor and potency of this debate is the result of people, places, and events that achieved notoriety well after my 1986 cutoff IOTL, and extrapolating this backward by over a quarter-century would be anachronistic. In addition, I will
not answer your questions about what becomes of any people, places, or events post-1986 because they are outside the scope of this timeline (unless and until I decide to write a sequel). This blanket statement is
not directed at anyone in particular; I just felt the need to make things clear with regards to this sensitive subject. Thank you all for your understanding on this issue.
I'm really enjoying this timeline; I'm another one who came here from TVTropes.
Welcome aboard, Daibhid, not only to this thread but also to the board itself, and thank you for devoting your very first (and second!) post to my timeline. I do indeed recognize your name from the wonderful work you've done on my TVTropes page, along with Clorox, LordInsane, Space Oddity, Thande, and everyone else who has contributed there.
Daibhid C said:
For your demographics: I was born in 1976, so we're just coming up to the TV I remember.
Congratulations, you are the median data point! (21 of 41). The mean remains at 1975, just about dead centre between our two extremes (1950 and 1999). Now, if anyone else would like to contribute their year of birth, they are more than welcome, especially since we've got
ten mode years right now (out of a possible fifty). One caveat before you share, though: if you think you may have already told me what your birth year is, you probably have. Just search this thread for it and it should pop up from when you mentioned it to me before. If not, then have at it! And if you'd rather the whole internet not know when you were born, you can PM me instead.
Daibhid C said:
I think 4 y.o. TTL Daibhid would really have liked Sesame Square. (Suggestion: maybe Louise Gold gets her puppeteering break on this, since Fran Brill has her OTL role on The Muppet Show?)
I like that idea. Consider it canon!
Daibhid C said:
Looking forward to the next entry!
And as you can see, you had expert timing. I hope you enjoyed it!
The opposite side of the rise in popularity of Shirley as a
girls name is that it obscured the fact that it was previously a
boys name. For example the wrestler
Big Daddy (Shirley Crabtree Jr), born 1930.
Yes, one of a great many boy's names which were co-opted for girls (along with Meredith, Ashley, Courtney, Taylor... though some of these still remain popular for boys).
I imagine that this sitcom would be beloved in Baltimore in the late '70s/early 80s (assuming it goes into syndication), but I wonder about one knock-on effect: beginning in 1979, Baltimore mayor William Donald Schaefer will authorize construction of what would become Harborplace, beginning the transformation of downtown Baltimore's waterfront from a working port to a tourist destination. Major capital expenditures would soon follow: the National Aquarium, Science Center, Civic Center, and so on.
If then-downtown Baltimore's docks are glamorized (albeit in a double-edged, gritty sort of way), you could see a lot more backlash against the proposed renovations, in much the same way that native New Yorkers decry the "new," safer, family-friendly Times Square in NYC.
All of what you say makes sense. I certainly see the people of Baltimore embracing this show, it would probably have a great deal of local colour to it.
Andrew T said:
I was going to make this point until I got to the footnotes and saw that it already occurred to you.
Yes, sadly, the real-life pop charts did not appreciate the irony of the same woman singing both those songs. Fortunately, I had some wiggle room
Andrew T said:
But as you know, I've got music on my mind lately. So it seems that you've only passingly touched on the music scene in the decade since the POD, despite massive cultural differences (an earlier end to you-know-what, Moonshot Lunacy, "Let's Have One More," etc.) that would certainly have spillover effects on popular music.
We're entering the late-1970s, and OTL saw the rise of at least four major subgenres whose influences are still with us today: disco, punk, southern rock, and guitar-heavy hard rock. Way back in "Shifting Gears" (
post #2230), you told us that there would be no
Saturday Night Fever ITTL, and thus disco remains "black" music throughout the '70s with the exception of the occasional crossover hit. Any thought about how the rest of the music scene is shaping up during TTL's Reagan '70s?
Actually, yes, I do have some thoughts. I haven't really covered music in too much detail because the vagaries of the music industry don't appeal to me as strongly as television and film, and quite frankly you do a much better job covering music than I ever could over on
Dirty Laundry, but my thoughts were that, since Prog was bigger in the early-1970s, the Punk backlash against it would also be bigger. But Punk would obviously be mostly an urban phenomenon; as far as
Three Chords and the Truth are concerned, there would indeed be a rise of Southern Rock in the South and other rural regions, most of which would be anti-AIP in content (as AIP supporters don't generally like any kind of Rock music - they prefer Country). More urbane black listeners, of course, gravitate towards *Disco, as does the gay community. (Funk and R&B remain popular with black audiences as well.) *New Wave would probably pick up earlier, so that the mainstream have something they can dance to (which is to say that the emerging genre would probably be "dancier" than IOTL). Without question,
the major genre all through the 1970s would be the continuum of MOR, soft-rock, easy-listening, beautiful music, etc.
Andrew T said:
Anyway, great stuff as always, Brainbin!
Thank you, Andrew
Interesting thought, but then you would have a backlash against the backlash, in the form of a mini-baby boom meaning more push for family-friendly things, so it might even out.
That was the general idea, yes. The initial push isn't as strong, so the backlash against it isn't as strong, and then the backlash against
that isn't as strong either. So the picture of womanhood in the 1970s is more muddled, which I hope my update was successful at conveying, rather than being as decisive. Of course, women ITTL have the "real-life" examples of Lucille Ball and Marcia Lucas, two extremely successful working women (well, Marcia
was before the lawsuit, but she's still the breadwinner for her family since George is basically unemployable), and in the case of TWR, someone who is nationally famous, and runs her own big business. IOTL, Oprah Winfrey and Martha Stewart would later achieve the same level of success that Lucille Ball has done ITTL, though they obviously went about it in a more personalized fashion.
Thank you, Professor
The Professor said:
And amazing previous update that I seem to have missed (how
).
And thank you again! But don't worry, at least you've seen it
now, and that's what's important.
The Professor said:
I think I'm half of one of the few crosssex twins that doesn't share an initial with his sister!
That said, I do think it was deliberate since we shared a few school classes growing up.
Ah, so you're a twin! Not being one myself (nor knowing that many - there are none even in my extended family) I've never been terribly aware of naming patterns beyond what we see for twins on television and in books and movies. It does give me pause, though - I've never really thought about what
I would name my hypothetical twins.
The Professor said:
I'll also note that my name was deliberately chosen to be normal but also rare. And how many others did I run into growing up? Lots and lots and lots
. Indeed practically every spelling variation - and there are a lot of variations (8 at the last count) - so that I tended to introduce myself by spelling
Funny thing about my name. It's ridiculously common amongst boys of my generation, and yet I've met very few people my age who share it with me. Go figure!
Thank you, Nigel
NCW8 said:
On the subject of gritty police shows with female leads, I wonder whether there will be a version of Cagney and Lacey ITTL. There is plenty of opportunity for the cast to be butterflied. As an obvious example, Loretta Swit was cast in the role of Cagney in the TV Movie, but couldn't take part in the TV Series because of her commitments to M*A*S*H. So ITTL she could appear in the TV Series. Of course, with no M*A*S*H, he career might be butterflied so that she doesn't get cast at all.
That's an excellent question. Also worth noting, of course, is that Tyne Daly was cast as Lacey in large part due to her role in
The Enforcer, playing an unglamorous female cop (the anti-
Police Woman, if you will). I would therefore have to decide if she would be cast in
that part ITTL.
I'm looking forward to the next update. This will probably be a big wham episode ITTL and (Hopefully), a big success for George Lucas and a big humiliation for Bludhorn.
Since you're looking so forward to the next update, I won't say anything that would spoil the surprise
Baltimore seems like a decent analogue for Liverpool, though wouldn't an American audience miss the 'birds' bilingual pun and think it's only about the sports team?
Good point. Would a title using the word "Chicks" work better - Baltimore Chicks ?
I think you have the show explain it in the first season's credits, and then everyone's in on the joke. Otherwise, it definitely doesn't work as a pun; the Orioles are the "Birds" -- never any other synonym -- and rookies are "Baby Birds," not chicks.
I think part of the problem was that the UK series based the title on the Liver Bird, as a symbol of Liverpool and this simply doesn't translate very well to the US.
I have to say, as an American I think you're not giving us enough credit. "Birds" isn't as common slang in the US (it's a bit archaic), but it's not unknown, either. I knew immediately what it meant when Brainbin ran the title by me in production for this, and looking it up on the web I find it listed as both US and UK slang, not just UK.
I have to agree with Andrew and e of pi here, gentlemen (and it may not escape your notice that I have three
Brits suggesting that the title would not work and two
Americans defending it). First of all, as Andrew points out, "Birds of Baltimore" is a pun on the Orioles (or, the "Birds"), which preserves the Liver Bird symbolic connection to the city. Also, and though "bird" is not a ubiquitous term for women stateside, I wouldn't call it unknown,
per se - just uncommon. That said, I do have a solution that might reinforce the validity of the title (and one in the finest British tradition) - give the two leads bird-related names. Allow me to introduce Polly and Robin!
One query. Did the Larry Hagman character in Jennie dominate so much, although Jennie being technically a 'slave' was in a submissive role? Admittedly I'm working from ~40 year old memories which were mainly related to my young self's awareness that Barbara Eden looks very sexy. However I vaguely remember that because of her desire to resolve problems for him he was always chasing about trying to sort out the resultant problems.
Yeah, my recollection is much the same. Bewitched too. Major Tony and Darren would bluster and lay down the law and act like they were in charge, and Jeannie and Samantha would smile sweetly and agree and then do whatever they wanted.
(Of course, there's the not unreasonable point that "women are really in charge anyway, they just try not to let the men know" is also an anti-feminist viewpoint, just a more subtle one.)
As far as Jeannie is concerned, she is an exemplar of the
Happiness In Slavery trope - she
wants to be ordered around by Tony, because she's fallen in love with him. The implications there really do speak for themselves. As for
Bewitched, it started out as a fairly subversive take on the traditional male-dominated household, in the black-and-white first season produced by Danny Arnold - who basically wrote for this fantastic romantic comedy in a more muted, character-driven style, complete with
Star Trek-style allegory and moral lessons about a woman being more powerful than a man, and there being nothing wrong with that. He left after the first season, and it then became the
Bewitched with which we are all now familiar. Basically, the "problems" with both shows are subtextual. It's certainly very possible to sit back and enjoy them at face value.