Yep. It also seems to be more in-character for Julian without making him into a violent idiot.
Julian the Apostate
- Thread starter Duc d'Orleans
- Start date
Yep. It also seems to be more in-character for Julian without making him into a violent idiot.
Julian Optimus Magnus' Hand-picked Successor was...
No guesses? Aww come on...
Happy Memorial Day to All Y'all!
Hero of Canton
No guesses? Aww come on...
Happy Memorial Day to All Y'all!
Hero of Canton
No guesses? Aww come on...
Happy Memorial Day to All Y'all!
Hero of Canton
The way you said "half-barbarian," I figured Stilcho.
That being said, how about you start on that TL?
***DING! DING! DING!***
Three Internet virtual brownies to the Merry Prankster!
Since I really have no time to create something from scratch for this particular thread, it would be something I'd have to post in the ASB section because of the presence of Ritual Magic, Psionic Powers, the Angels vs. Demons Cold/Proxy War, the Seelie vs. Unseelie Cold/Proxy War, Undead, Dragons, Ley Line Interworld Subway of the Gawds, and an assortment of the Cthulhu Mythos critters.
Julian was a very powerful spell caster.
Hero of Canton
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"I've got no time" is always a perfectly good reason. AH.com was made for man, not man for AH.com.
Anybody else want to take a stab at it? I'd rather not.
Anybody else want to take a stab at it? I'd rather not.
"That was well said. Wasn't that well said?" <beat> "Had a certain poetry to it Sir." Malcolm Reynolds and Zoe Washburn, Firefly, "Out of Gas" 2002.
Hero of Canton
"That was well said. Wasn't that well said?" <beat> "Had a certain poetry to it Sir." Malcolm Reynolds and Zoe Washburn, Firefly, "Out of Gas" 2002.
Hero of Canton
I'm paraphrasing the Bible. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Mark 2:27.
Someone else said it first.
Okay, I kinda lost track of the discussion.
Regarding his death, I think we need to get the facts straight. Here's the link to Ammianus Marcellinus' work.
Long story short, Shapur's army was shadowing the Romans and harrasing them. On June 22, a pitched battle took place, in which the Romans approached their enemy in a wide crescent formation and at the double, so as to minimize their exposure to missile fire. Once they closed in, they got the better of the Persians, who were forced to retreat.
For the next 3 days they stayed in camp, taking care of the wounded etc., Then, on the 26th, they set out. The Persians were harrasing them from the surrounding hills, so they marched out in battle formation, with the legionnaries packed into squares.
Julian, who had gone on to reconnoitre the ground in front was suddenly informed that the rear was attacked. Rushing back without putting on his armour, he was informed en-route that the front was coming under simmilar attack. He rushed back to the front, encouraged the men, when suddenly the left wing of the central part of the column came under a very intense attack from Persian cataphracts, spearmen, archers and elephants, and it began to give way. Again he rushed to the crisis point and took control of his men. The heavy infantry held the line while more lightly-armed troops infiltrated the cracks between the Persian forces and struck them from the rear. At this point, the Persian animals (probably first the elephants, followed by the cataphracts) fled back in dissaray, which probably lead to the Persian spearmen following suit.
His bodyguard however had gotten broken up and separated from him. Then...
So, it wasn't so much a case of the army being unable to protect him, rather Julian's luck finally running out. Having read a bit on him, I can say that it's almost a given to see him putting himself in mortal danger during a battle. It's what brought about his victories and his popularity among the soldiers (and thus his position as emperor), as well as the ultimate cause of his death.
Regarding the retreat, one of the main reasons Jovian accepted the peace was because he was afraid that Procopius (who commanded the 30k men sent to lure the Persians into Armenia) would proclaim himself emperor, Thus, Jovian wanted to reach Syria as fast as possible to secure his position.
Since the river was swollen, the Romans couldn't build any bridges across, even though their assault troops had ambushed and defeated the small Persian force guarding the left bank. Had they marched only a few more miles north upriver, they would have found a suitable spot where the Persians would build a river right after peace was concluded. They had some boats with them, but it would have taken time to ferry everyone across.
Had Julian still been alive, there would have been no rush to get back ASAP, screw everyone, especially since they wouldn't have been stalled by the 4 days negotiantions AND since they were giving the Persians a run for their money everytime they clashed close-up OTL under Jovian's command. Hence, under Julian they would have probably reached the crossing and safely gotten across.
Regarding his death, I think we need to get the facts straight. Here's the link to Ammianus Marcellinus' work.
Long story short, Shapur's army was shadowing the Romans and harrasing them. On June 22, a pitched battle took place, in which the Romans approached their enemy in a wide crescent formation and at the double, so as to minimize their exposure to missile fire. Once they closed in, they got the better of the Persians, who were forced to retreat.
For the next 3 days they stayed in camp, taking care of the wounded etc., Then, on the 26th, they set out. The Persians were harrasing them from the surrounding hills, so they marched out in battle formation, with the legionnaries packed into squares.
Julian, who had gone on to reconnoitre the ground in front was suddenly informed that the rear was attacked. Rushing back without putting on his armour, he was informed en-route that the front was coming under simmilar attack. He rushed back to the front, encouraged the men, when suddenly the left wing of the central part of the column came under a very intense attack from Persian cataphracts, spearmen, archers and elephants, and it began to give way. Again he rushed to the crisis point and took control of his men. The heavy infantry held the line while more lightly-armed troops infiltrated the cracks between the Persian forces and struck them from the rear. At this point, the Persian animals (probably first the elephants, followed by the cataphracts) fled back in dissaray, which probably lead to the Persian spearmen following suit.
His bodyguard however had gotten broken up and separated from him. Then...
So, it wasn't so much a case of the army being unable to protect him, rather Julian's luck finally running out. Having read a bit on him, I can say that it's almost a given to see him putting himself in mortal danger during a battle. It's what brought about his victories and his popularity among the soldiers (and thus his position as emperor), as well as the ultimate cause of his death.
Regarding the retreat, one of the main reasons Jovian accepted the peace was because he was afraid that Procopius (who commanded the 30k men sent to lure the Persians into Armenia) would proclaim himself emperor, Thus, Jovian wanted to reach Syria as fast as possible to secure his position.
Since the river was swollen, the Romans couldn't build any bridges across, even though their assault troops had ambushed and defeated the small Persian force guarding the left bank. Had they marched only a few more miles north upriver, they would have found a suitable spot where the Persians would build a river right after peace was concluded. They had some boats with them, but it would have taken time to ferry everyone across.
Had Julian still been alive, there would have been no rush to get back ASAP, screw everyone, especially since they wouldn't have been stalled by the 4 days negotiantions AND since they were giving the Persians a run for their money everytime they clashed close-up OTL under Jovian's command. Hence, under Julian they would have probably reached the crossing and safely gotten across.
Magnum
Thanks for that. It sounds like Julian tried to identify himself with Alexander a bit too much but lacked his luck when it came to taking risks.
I had presumed that the Tigris would have been impassible from what others had said but sounds like it would have been possible. Also that the attempt under Jovian was at least partially successful and only thwarted by the negotiations started by the Persians.
Steve
Thanks for that. It sounds like Julian tried to identify himself with Alexander a bit too much but lacked his luck when it came to taking risks.
I had presumed that the Tigris would have been impassible from what others had said but sounds like it would have been possible. Also that the attempt under Jovian was at least partially successful and only thwarted by the negotiations started by the Persians.
Steve
Magnum
Thanks for that. It sounds like Julian tried to identify himself with Alexander a bit too much but lacked his luck when it came to taking risks.
Steve
While reading a book on him I noticed that every few pages there was a situation which almost got him killed. He would either have to stop fighting, or the fighting would eventually stop him.
This is the key piece. It takes places around the same time they had crossed the river after peace was concluded. Evidently there was some sort of ford upstream which the Persians took advantage of:
I'm kinda thinking of doing a TL on this period, although I may have to kill Julian off. Or make him one of the greatest emperors. Or have him muddle along acomplishing nothing. Or maybe some gray area of mixed result. With a great legacy. Or an awfull one... We'll see...
I really hope you do one (preferrably where Julian is a good emperor, though the other ones sounds great as well). Do you know of any good books I can read on Julian and the time period (besides Ammianus Marcellinus, who I intend to read at some point)?
Why not do both? After all, the most brilliant lights also burn out the fastest. Alex the Awesome being the very definition of it.
Hero of Canton
If you want to kill him off, he could die in some analogue to Valentinian's campaign against the Marcomanni that took place at the same time as the Great Conspiracy. However, I don't think four extra years is enough for him to accomplish all that much, especially re: religion.
On the other hand, my idea is that he's wounded in said campaign as a result of him trying to outdo Theodosius the Elder and causes (another) political crisis by refusing to pick a Christian heir/co-emperor.
(In my scenario Theodosius the Elder would make a logical choice, but given the "frenemy" thing and the religious thing, Julian isn't going to approve.)
On the other hand, my idea is that he's wounded in said campaign as a result of him trying to outdo Theodosius the Elder and causes (another) political crisis by refusing to pick a Christian heir/co-emperor.
(In my scenario Theodosius the Elder would make a logical choice, but given the "frenemy" thing and the religious thing, Julian isn't going to approve.)
I read Robert Browning's "The emperor Julian". It's pretty good and easy going (I finished it in 2 days @ work). The downside is the author sometimes jumps to conclusions that aren't necessarily warranted or that different chapters sometimes seem to have been written by different people. Overall though, it was a very fun read.
Other than this, I read bits and pieces from other books available online, and some had some really cool bits of info/trivia, but can't really remember which ones.
Okay, thanks. It seems to be a pretty good book from the looks of it.
Edit: I also found this book by Adrian Murdoch, which has good reviews: http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Paga...266/ref=cm_cr_dp_asin_lnk/192-7056307-8367737
Would you care to provide any basis for that, or would you prefer to criticize people without so much as a counterargument to make against them?