East Asian discovery of the New World

If a guy can get his people to build a massive Tomb for him over the course of years....

Not. Remotely. Equivalent.

The State Government Argument is rather cyclical of itself.

Strong Nation:
For-"We are already awesome, so let us go and take that anyway!"
Against-"We are already so awesome we don't need to look at anything else".

Weak Nation:
For-"We are on the ass end of Europe we have no choice!"
Against-"We don't have the power, Captain!"

The only nation in East Asia that embodies this any more is: Japan. Which throughout its history went on galavanting naval expeditions based on a Strong-Weak Mindset. Why not just do away with the Isolation, then? Therefore we either need a Superpower Korea that dissuasive the Hideyoshi Shogunate or have a Tokugawa Shogunate that is forced into a position where it can't get any value from the 'West' and looks 'East'. To mimic Portugal and Spain.

A Superpower Korea is going to occupy a lot of attention from Japan, and mimicing Portugal and Spain makes no sense given the extremely different positions of Japan relative to both the Americas and nearby countries than Portugal and Spain had.

It's like asking what if the Netherlands pulled a Brandenburg Militarization.
 

Flubber

Banned
...or have a Tokugawa Shogunate that is forced into a position where it can't get any value from the 'West' and looks 'East'. To mimic Portugal and Spain.


Not "East", "South" instead.

If the Shogunate is shut out of the east Asian trade - trade it already knows exists to it's south - it's not going to sail east to get to it.

Europe found itself shut out of the trade for the goods it craved so it looked for new routes to those goods. One route went around Africa, the other route uncovered the Americas. The situation is not even remotely similar for Japan.
 
Not "East", "South" instead.

If the Shogunate is shut out of the east Asian trade - trade it already knows exists to it's south - it's not going to sail east to get to it.

Europe found itself shut out of the trade for the goods it craved so it looked for new routes to those goods. One route went around Africa, the other route uncovered the Americas. The situation is not even remotely similar for Japan.


Not. Remotely. Equivalent.



A Superpower Korea is going to occupy a lot of attention from Japan, and mimicing Portugal and Spain makes no sense given the extremely different positions of Japan relative to both the Americas and nearby countries than Portugal and Spain had.

It's like asking what if the Netherlands pulled a Brandenburg Militarization.

Or persuade them that attacking would be foolish in the first place. So they would have to slink around Geo-Political realities of China and Korea.

The Japanese nor Spanish knew how close they were to the Americas. The Spanish and Portuguese then went out 'possibly' looking for them, because they were no longer embroiled in war for their territorial security. Each side knew the world was round, just not the exact geographic reality. Which they or anyone wouldn't really know the exact dimensions until the last century or so.

Even the English with Cabot guesstimated and sent him North West.
 
Or persuade them that attacking would be foolish in the first place. So they would have to slink around Geo-Political realities of China and Korea

And that's going to make Japan very focused on events nearby and not on far off exploration.

The Japanese nor Spanish knew how close they were to the Americas at the time they went out 'possibly' looking for them. Each side knew the world was round, just not the exact geographic reality. Which they or anyone wouldn't really know the exact dimensions until the last century or so.

Even the English with Cabot guesstimated and sent him North West.
So Spain or England going out in search of alternate trade routes and perceived to be shorter to somewhere it already knows the location of is tantamount to Japan sailing into the unknown.

That must be some seriously good shit.
 
And that's going to make Japan very focused on events nearby and not on far off exploration.

The Spanish were still fighting/raiding North Africa at this time and they still had time to do exploration (and later worry about France and revolts in the Netherlands).

So Spain going out in search of alternate trade routes and perceived to be shorter to somewhere it already knows the location of is tantamount to Japan sailing into the unknown.
Spain was looking for India and they wound up in the Caribbean, because they thought India was west.

The Japanese would end up in the Americas, because they would think Fusang could be exploited.

PLUS, if we are talking about a Post-Sengoku Era exploration then the Japanese could be aware of the Americas via the Dutch and Portuguese and Spanish.
 
The Spanish were still fighting/raiding North Africa at this time and they still had time to do exploration (and later worry about France and revolts in the Netherlands).

Which is not the same thing as facing a goddamn superpower Korea is for Japan.

Spain was looking for India and they wound up in the Caribbean, because they thought India was west.

The Japanese would end up in the Americas, because they would think Fusang could be exploited.
. . .


That's like an English expedition sailing in search of Avalon in order to bring back King Arthur. Only worse.


PLUS, if we are talking about a Post-Sengoku Era exploration then the Japanese could be aware of the Americas via the Dutch and Portugese and Spanish.

So, after the Mesoamerican empires have been taken and plundered, removing the main reason why sailing thousands of miles across an unknown ocean is worth it.
 

Flubber

Banned
The Japanese nor Spanish knew how close they were to the Americas.

So, Japan is going to sail east to reach the goods they already know are located to their south? Elfwine is right, that must be some seriously good shit.

Even the English with Cabot guesstimated and sent him North West.

That's called a "great circle" route. Even people in the 1400s realized the shortest path between two points on a sphere was a great circle route.
 
Which is not the same thing as facing a goddamn superpower Korea is for Japan.

. . .


That's like an English expedition sailing in search of Avalon in order to bring back King Arthur. Only worse.




So, after the Mesoamerican empires have been taken and plundered, removing the main reason why sailing thousands of miles across an unknown ocean is worth it.

You seem to underestimate how much people are willing to do or believe for the promise of profit alone. If I am not mistaken the English still believed they were descended from Arthur during this time frame.

Not if they didn't think that there were still empires of gold and or land with gold to be taken. It would just take a few rumors. Though, the Spanish themselves never found their city of gold. Again, much has been done in human history, because people thought something was there to be gained when in reality it was never there to begin with.

India - more accurately the Indies - is west of Spain.

What they thought was the East Indies/India.
 
You seem to underestimate how much people are willing to do or believe for the promise of profit alone. If I am not mistaken the English still believed they were descended from Arthur during this time frame.

People are willing to take great risks for what they believe is going to be highly profitable. What you're proposing is something like the One Thousand Dozen ( http://www.online-literature.com/poe/85/ ) - at best.

Not if they didn't think that there were still empires of gold and or land with gold to be taken. It would just take a few rumors. Though, the Spanish themselves never found their city of gold. Again, much has been done in human history, because people thought something was there to be gained when in reality it was never there to begin with.
"A few rumors" is not going to lead to an expedition across the rutting Pacific.

Much has been done in human history by people who thought, to quote London, "That eggs would sell at Dawson for five dollars a dozen was a safe working premise. Whence it was incontrovertible that one thousand dozen would bring, in the Golden Metropolis, five thousand dollars."

Once that gets out of hand, the vast majority of people are going to decide it isn't worth it. And if not them, their successors - because the kind of fools that do this are not going to be fools left in power.


Going on "We might find something if we get lucky."? No. Not when there are far more pressing concerns and no need for such gambling.
 
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Flubber

Banned
What they thought was the East Indies/India.


No. What they knew to be the East Indies/India.

That's major point you and the Usual Suspects can't seemingly manage to grasp. The European already knew the Indies existed, they already knew approximately where the Indies were located, and the already knew what goods they would find there.

The goal was known. The benefits of reaching that goal was already known. The only thing unknown was what was between them and their goal.

And before you attempt to use the OTL expeditions to find El Dorado, Cibola, and similar as "reasons" for an East Asian exploration of the Americas, I'll remind you that those expeditions were launched well after earlier expeditions had already discovered cities of gold.

The Portuguese and Spanish didn't discovery the Americas because they were out searching for some mythical city. They discovered the Americas because they were trying to find alternate routes to a location they already knew existed.
 
What about jade? From what I can discern, there are deposits of nephrite and jadeite along much of the west coast from British Columbia to northern California. I'm not sure whether the native cultures of that region worked it in any great quantities, but if they did, it might attract some attention from East Asian explorers. And of course further south, the Mesoamerican cultures made some very impressive artifacts from jade as well as silver and gold...
 
What about jade? From what I can discern, there are deposits of nephrite and jadeite along much of the west coast from British Columbia to northern California. I'm not sure whether the native cultures of that region worked it in any great quantities, but if they did, it might attract some attention from East Asian explorers. And of course further south, the Mesoamerican cultures made some very impressive artifacts from jade as well as silver and gold...

Still leaves the all important question of why the Asian powers sail East in the first place.

You're not going to get East Asian explorers unless there's a very high level of certainty of find something worth the expense and risk.
 

Flubber

Banned
What about jade?


And how to the East Asian powers know it's there before they set out?

The European powers had known the East Indies and the goods available there existed for over a thousand years before they began exploring alternate routes to reach those islands and goods.
 
Getting an expedition there doesn't strike me as much of a problem--Columbus was basically funded by Royal petty cash as a one in a million shot, but the rulers of Spain could afford it, so why not? Shouldn't be hard to get an Emperor to see it the same way. The problem is finding something on the other side to grab the attention of Chinese interests. Colonization won't be an immediate draw, and trade only likely if the explorers land in central Mexico or Peru, the latter of which is startlingly unlikely.

On the other hand, I did have this idea: Perhaps in a China with greater demand for spices and pearls and such and/or more cutthroat competition between traders the aforementioned Philipines trade would expand into Oceana. Merchantile families begin claiming islands, even if they have to invest the seed crop of spices, and then we get some ridiculous bubble like the whole tulip futures fiasco. Uncovering the Polynesian trade routs lead them eventually to Easter Island and then Peru, where they find people with silver before the whole spie bubble collapses.
 
The Chinese could simply look for more islands like the Philippines and the Indies.

The Andalusians, Polynesians, Taino, Caribs, and Javanese all did the same. It's not that unfathomable to assume there are more islands out there.

An voyage of a few (3 or less) ships is a fraction of a percentage of China's income. Or a desperate merchant having lost all his assets in the Philippines could look for new opportunities.

It took Europe three idiots (Columbus, Ferdinand, and Isabella) to find the New World.
 
Getting an expedition there doesn't strike me as much of a problem--Columbus was basically funded by Royal petty cash as a one in a million shot, but the rulers of Spain could afford it, so why not? Shouldn't be hard to get an Emperor to see it the same way.

Should be VERY hard to see "an expedition into the unknown" as the same as "an expedition that promises a shorter voyage to a place we already know".

On the other hand, I did have this idea: Perhaps in a China with greater demand for spices and pearls and such and/or more cutthroat competition between traders the aforementioned Philipines trade would expand into Oceana. Merchantile families begin claiming islands, even if they have to invest the seed crop of spices, and then we get some ridiculous bubble like the whole tulip futures fiasco. Uncovering the Polynesian trade routs lead them eventually to Easter Island and then Peru, where they find people with silver before the whole spie bubble collapses.

That actually makes a grain of sense by comparison to the other ideas on how you'd get a voyage to the East.
 
The Chinese could simply look for more islands like the Philippines and the Indies.

The Andalusians, Polynesians, Taino, Caribs, and Javanese all did the same. It's not that unfathomable to assume there are more islands out there.

It's quite unfathomable to see there being a point to "just looking for more islands like the Phillippines and the Indies" when there's no shortage of profit from existing routes (and thus no need to find new ones).

It took Europe three idiots (Columbus, Ferdinand, and Isabella) to find the New World.
It took a massive distortion of what was going on to make that happen to sum it up like that.
 
Where there is a will, there is a way.

Once again this argument comes simply back to thinking people can do much and thinking people can only do too little. Despite the fact that human history has literally moved mountains on more or less.

Though, really. What was the motivation for Columbus then to prove he was right and reap the awards?

For Japan it would have to be "OK, we know that somewhere to the East some barbarians conquered even more barbaric, barbarians who found Mountains of Gold! Reason states that if there is that much around then there must be more! If they could do it, then so could we."

Perhaps then the involvement of Japan in the Americas would not be out of sheer minded will of the State, but pulled on by rising needs and desires of persons and to counter rivals. Such as what happened between the English and French. What would a Japan that is non-isolationist, but not interested in invading China or Korea do? As the Manchu cut themselves off from the world the Japanese would be interested in filling the vacuum left behind and become quite energetic. Establishing trade posts on the peripherary north of Manchuria to trade with the locals for horses, lumber, establish iron mines and so forth-creeping north and eastward into Alaska as traders, fishermen, and whoever else get pulled into the region as it develops through state and non-state actors.

Japanese merchants and workers lured by gold and opportunity travel to New Spain and set up roots and decide to branch out. Perhaps the Japanese decide to find the Northwest passage or some European arrives in Japan to do that by recruiting resources locally. Maybe they get into a fight with Spain, and someone comes up with the idea to counter the Spanish by threatening their position in the New World.

Should be VERY hard to see "an expedition into the unknown" as the same as "an expedition that promises a shorter voyage to a place we already know".

They really did think he would die or fail.
 
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What about jade? From what I can discern, there are deposits of nephrite and jadeite along much of the west coast from British Columbia to northern California. I'm not sure whether the native cultures of that region worked it in any great quantities, but if they did, it might attract some attention from East Asian explorers. And of course further south, the Mesoamerican cultures made some very impressive artifacts from jade as well as silver and gold...

problem is that 1) there isn't an initial goal to go there : really it is a combinaison of the look for a shortcut to an existing trade (spices, ect), islands on the right place (the azores really helped) and good wind which allowed the (re)discovery of the Americas
2) on the other hand the pacific is huge, and there is no really much to do with the forest of kamtchaka and alaska.

What I could see would require a right combination of an upward eastern asian (Japan?) power looking for the source of european gold (from america) and establishing relationship on the way. But I don't see an actual discovery very plausible.
 
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