That Wacky Redhead

[Glen]

Marshall is basing the character off his younger self - I suspect this means we can expect to see him getting some decent writing. I think we can hope for good things from this character.

 

[stevep]

This certainly grabbed my attention...

It has me a bit concerned as well. Although the 70's were fairly disruptive anyway OTL and finally saw the collapse of the post-war consensus in both Britain and the US. Might be that its no worse, possibly even not as bad as OTL.

Steve

 

[unclepatrick]

Wacky redhead

Any chance of saving the junked episodes of Doctor Who?

(http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Missing_episode

On the board about the BBC Lord of the rings Adaption during the 1960's. I comment that The Lord of the Ring could have been syndicated and if that was a success that other 1960 BBC shows including Doctor Who and Out of the Unknown. This would have saved the all the missing episodes which were stored untill 1974 when the BBC started elimanting them.

 

[Brainbin]

Thank you all for your responses to my latest update, and many thanks as well for your kind words about the new TV Tropes page! It's just about the last thing that I can check off my "wildest dreams" list with regards to reception for this timeline, and it really does prove that good things come to those who wait All that said:

A solid update in many ways, Brainbin.

Thank you, Glen!

I personally am a huge fan of 1950s style nostalgia and love seeing it coming to fruition even fuller and earlier here, at least by intimation.

Indeed, it's going to come in fuller force, especially in its peak (I'm actually describing the beginnings of the trend; it'll ramp up post-1973, for reasons that will be elaborated upon in the future). I also see it being a more tenacious and pervasive trend, much like our enduring, present-day nostalgia for the 1980s (which, like the 1950s, had many problems, but had that ineffable quality to them; I may be biased, of course, considering that I was born in the 1980s).

I loved the movie adaptation for Grease IOTL, but I am worried that this earlier showing and the less emphasis on the romance will mean that my Sandy, Olivia Newton John, will never be seen in the role.

Oh, Sandy, baby... The casting of Newton-John, of course, completely changed her character. I have no intention of butterflying away her singing career - her angelic voice hits just the right MOR, easy-listening note that so defines 1970s pop music - but I certainly will not commit to casting her in the film adaptation. But I won't rule her out, either

I am pleased to see if this timelines version of happy days beginning to be launched. I find "the mash" very interesting character to be explored here, though of course I will miss our Fonz. I love Mickey Dolenz in the Monkeys but am uncertain how he will play in this. Of course, Henry Winkler wasn't exactly typecasting the role of the Fonz in our time line, and if he did a good job in Adam 12 maybe it will be replicated here, although still having a hard time wrapping my head around a Mickey Dolenz greaser.

I'm going to approach Rock Around the Clock in much the same way that I chose to present Those Were the Days; there will be significant differences from the OTL version, which will be highlighted over the course of the narrative. I went with Dolenz because he was the original choice, and it helps to prove my earlier argument: shocking swerves are commonplace IOTL, and the path of least resistance is followed a good deal less frequently than you might expect. As to his acting ability: let's be fair. Would you imagine a soft-spoken, mild-mannered, short, too-old-for-the-part actor like Henry Winkler to be good for a role like Fonzie if you didn't have a preexisting bias? Probably not. Actors who challenge our preconceptions of them are often the most memorable, after all.

I respect your decision not to have Henry Winkler cast as the Fonz here, but I still feel you need to give us a little more than he chose to pursue the theater, I really think we would still see him in television at some point.

I just might be cooking something with regards to Winkler and his future career plans...

Glad to see American graffiti off the ground, and Billy Crystal is a very interesting choice as a replacement for Richard Dreyfuss, so good on you I'm using that suggestion. I would worry that Billy Crystal can't pull off "non-ethnic" as well as Richard Dreyfuss pulled off earlier in his career.

I see where you're coming from, but Jodie from "Soap", his breakthrough role IOTL, didn't really strike me as too "ethnic". I think we can get Crystal (four years ahead of schedule, and therefore more fresh-faced, as Dreyfuss was) to "pass" with the right hairstyle and some vocal training to loosen that prominent Noo Yawk accent of his.

On the other hand, maybe that is a good day. so if Erin Moran is not playing Joni in this version of happy days it will be a slight loss to the show, she did such a good job playing the bratty younger sister on the show it's hard to imagine it without her. Of course, the greatest loss of all is Tom Bosley not playing the patriarch of the Cunningham family. I hope you have something for him to do in this timeline as he would be a terrible loss.

Erin Moran would almost certainly not be cast as Joanie with a POD in 1966. There are way too many variables to take into account for someone that young, so early in her career. Tom Bosley is a lamentable loss, I agree, but I think that he (like Gould, IOTL) will land on his feet. I just have to find the right place for him to do so.

Billy Crystal in American Graffiti?!

phx1138 is a genius!

Well, you know what they say about a stopped clock being right twice a day

Great update, Brainbin!

Thank you, vultan

Interesting coverage of the 50s nostalgia boom--I was wondering how it might have been effected by the less tumultuous late 60s and early 70s ITTL. It looks like even with the 60s being a bit les...60s, the 50s nostalgia still gets its springboard. I guess it's like the TLs where Pearl Harbor is less bad or whatever--while it looks better from our perspective rooted in OTL, ITTL they still weren't the greatest years to live through.

That's a very astute way of looking at it, and I agree wholeheartedly. It's actually a point that I've borrowed from a lot of the dystopian timelines on this site, and I'm just applying it in reverse. It's also a fundamental aspect of human nature. No matter how much we have, no matter how well things are going, we always want more, and we always demand better. That's one of the core themes of Star Trek, after all. And it's obviously a double-edged sword.

I wonder what a possibly more successful American Graffiti does for Lucas on Star Wars (especially with closer connections in the editing/post-production business earlier than OTL)? I suppose we'll find out eventually...

Indeed we will...

Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing what you have in store on the spaceflight front, and I must say two things on the TVTropes front:
1) Congratulations, you deserve it.
2) Examining the publicly available evidence, I blame Thande. Surely no other reasons bare speculation of any sort.

Thank you very much

And for the official record, I was already aware that Thande is responsible for my TV Tropes page, and I have already thanked him personally.

I maintain, those who claim "Baby Boomer" includes those born as late as 1963 are idiots. This proves it. So, I suggest, does the success of "American Grafitti" & "Happy Days" (by any name).

And seeing as you were born in 1963, you therefore do not consider yourself a baby boomer? Which instead means that you're among the oldest cohorts of Generation X! Tell me, what are your thoughts on flannel shirts, poorly-groomed hair, grunge music, and comic book stores?

Just so long as it's not Travolta opposite Olivia, OK? (Stunning, with the voice of an angel, she deserves somebody who can actually sing. {Yes, I feel free to call this stunner by her first name, too. There's only 1.})

There's only one Newton-John, too. And like I said earlier, she may not be cast either!

Butterflies enough to keep him from getting written out by Season 2?

Now that would be telling! But if they did, what would we possibly call the iconic trope that is named for him?

Am I the only one who doesn't see why it's not "maskarelli"?

You are technically correct, sir - the best kind of correct! - and his real name is indeed spelled Masciarelli, which would be pronounced "Mash". Given that Americans (and Canadians), especially in this era, tend to pronounce words as written, I'm sure they added the "h" into the character's original name (which was, of course, changed to "Fonzarelli" IOTL due to the concurrently-running TV series also called "M*A*S*H", which does not exist here) to help audiences understand where the nickname comes from. My apologies to any Italophone readers, or descendants of same, but that's the way it goes.

Still turned down "Dirty Harry", then, huh?

Allow me to repeat what the poster says so succinctly: Clint Eastwood Is Dirty Harry

TYVM, sir. (Was there an Oscar nom in it OTL? I don't recall.)

And thank you very much for the suggestion!

The Oscar nominations received by American Graffiti IOTL were Best Picture, Best Director, Best Original Screenplay, Best Supporting Actress (for Candy Clark), and Best Film Editing (for Verna Fields and Marcia Lucas). ITTL, all of the same were received, with one exception: Verna Fields is subbed out in exchange for Donald R. Rode, Supervising Editor at Desilu Post-Production. There are two additional Oscar nods: Best Art Direction-Set Decoration (for Dennis Lynton Clark and Douglas Freeman), and Best Costume Design (for Aggie Guerard Rogers), both of which come at the expense of the nominations for The Way We Were in those categories IOTL.

I confess some confusion, here. Was hiring an editor OTL so expensive, it actually hurt their set design or costuming budget?

Desilu is handling all aspects of post-production for the film, with Lucas (and Coppola and Kurtz) "supervising". I mentioned Fields specifically in the update because her absence is directly felt by one of my focal characters (Marcia Lucas). Desilu is also responsible for the sound mixing and editing, for example. Post-production is one of the easiest places for budget overruns to accumulate, but Desilu agreed to charge a bargain rate because it's an experiment for them, dipping their toes into editing for major motion pictures in hopes of gaining prestige and opening the door for new opportunities. The budget is already quite low ($777,777 IOTL; a little over $800,000 ITTL, given the better economy), but here more is able to be spent on elements of pre-production and the filming proper.

Did you know, after they wrapped, they put the cars up for auction locally, & couldn't sell 'em? Even the Deuce? They couldn't get $50 for it. One of the carpenters or somebody got it for next to nothing, & IIRC, it ended up totalled.

I have heard that story, yes. Here, more of them sell (again, better economy), though still probably not all of them.

Doubtless you know, but as I heard the story, Elton didn't like it, & the crowd was all added in post. (TBH, I can't imagine the "bare" version. Can't have been as good.)

I come from a family of Elton fans (and yes, he is someone you address by first name), so I'm perhaps more familiar with the song than I'd like to be. It's pretty obvious that the crowd was added in post; they sound far too "clean" and come in so obviously on cue. I do agree that it adds a certain je ne sais quoi to the song, and it just wouldn't sound the same without it.

(They still give me nightmares. Along with the '59 Cad taillights.)

See, when I was a kid, the "box on wheels" style was still in vogue. I actually miss it, myself

I forgot to mention that candle in the wind is one of my favorite Elton John songs, so very nice to see it getting more attention earlier in this timeline.

I can guarantee you that, ITTL, there won't be a second version, dedicated to an entirely different dead celebrity, that would cheapen the original. And you can take that declaration in whatever way you like

I'm still stunned, though, that Winkler was as old as he was when he got the part; i always pictured the Fonz to be about 20-22 at the start. (Thenagain, they cast Travolta as a high school student, albeit a remedial one, so maybe I shouldn't have been surprised.)

The practice of casting actors far too old for their parts is nothing new, and thrived in this era as it did before and after. (Dolenz is actually the same age as Winkler.)

This certainly grabbed my attention...

Excellent

Micky Dolenz's role as Oiler on Adam-12 was angrier and less likeable than Henry Winkler as the Fonz. If his portrayal of the Mash is similar, I cannot see him becoming as popular ITTL as the the Fonz OTL. The role may be softened due to its being in a nostalgia comedy, but would not necessarily become anything like the Fonz. With a different biker character and series title, the series could go in a darker, more Blackboard Jungle direction.

I should have known that you would have seen the episode in question, Chuck - I myself have not, though - for the time being, at least - I can rectify that situation rather easily. (The episode in question is called "Dirt Duel". You all know where you can look for it.) I also like your suggestion of taking things in a Blackboard Jungle direction, and we'll have to see how right you are. One thing worth noting is that even IOTL, the Fonzie started out as a darker, more enigmatic character. The problem is that the production company, Miller-Milkis (which would later achieve notoriety as Miller-Boyett) has very low standards. This was aggravated by the non-existent quality control at the famously apathetic Paramount Television IOTL. However, Miller-Milkis and Marshall are going to be working with a far more proactive and scrupulous studio ITTL - none other than Desilu Productions. And representing That Wacky Redhead's interests are Herb Solow and Robert Justman, who know how to make good television.

Could be Dolenz doesn't last more than Season 1, then, & it's Mash, & not big bro Chuck, who gets written out...

That is a most intriguing guess, which I will neither confirm nor deny

Marshall is basing the character off his younger self - I suspect this means we can expect to see him getting some decent writing. I think we can hope for good things from this character.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, Glen.

It has me a bit concerned as well. Although the 70's were fairly disruptive anyway OTL and finally saw the collapse of the post-war consensus in both Britain and the US. Might be that its no worse, possibly even not as bad as OTL.

Glad to see that you're still reading along, Steve We'll find out what fate will befall TTL in due time, I promise you.

 

[Lord Insane]

I just wanted to say that I am reading, but don't actually know enough about subject matters of the update to say more than 'it looks interesting'.

 

[Falkenburg]

I just wanted to say that I am reading, but don't actually know enough about subject matters of the update to say more than 'it looks intriguing'.

Fixed that for you.

Wondering if Trans-Atlantic cultural osmosis might lead to an earlier, less Glam-influenced, revival of the Teddy Boy subculture?

It would be nice to think that Britains' economy might be in (slightly) better shape than OTL too.
That might hold out some hope that the Skinhead subculture might never become poisoned with Far Right racist bile.

Falkenburg

 

[phx1138]

Oh, Sandy, baby... The casting of Newton-John, of course, completely changed her character. I have no intention of butterflying away her singing career - her angelic voice hits just the right MOR, easy-listening note that so defines 1970s pop music - but I certainly will not commit to casting her in the film adaptation. But I won't rule her out, either

If she stayed out of acting entirely, I could live with it. Especially if she didn't do "Xanadu". (She really deserved better.) I only mean, with that voice, she deserves an equal match if she does do "Greased Lightning". (I can't think of anybody who could act and sing from that period, tho.)

Actually, she took quite a bit of heat for her country records for being too "non-traditional".

Would you imagine a soft-spoken, mild-mannered, short, too-old-for-the-part actor like Henry Winkler to be good for a role like Fonzie if you didn't have a preexisting bias?

When did that have any bearing on it?

I see where you're coming from, but Jodie from "Soap", his breakthrough role IOTL, didn't really strike me as too "ethnic". I think we can get Crystal (four years ahead of schedule, and therefore more fresh-faced, as Dreyfuss was) to "pass" with the right hairstyle and some vocal training to loosen that prominent Noo Yawk accent of his.

I don't see why not, either, myself. Crystal did a pretty good 80yr old Jew, so I'm guessing he could put on the right voice (or lose it), as needed.

Well, you know what they say about a stopped clock being right twice a day

That's a very astute way of looking at it, and I agree wholeheartedly.

I wonder if it's not human nature to remember "the good old days", to forget the bad even in the worst of times. (I can't imagine the Depression being seen as "good", but did anybody have good memories from those times? I suspect some did. Which is, a bit ironically, thematic of "The Way We Were" & "American Grafitti", both.)

And seeing as you were born in 1963, you therefore do not consider yourself a baby boomer? Which instead means that you're among the oldest cohorts of Generation X! Tell me, what are your thoughts on flannel shirts, poorly-groomed hair, grunge music, and comic book stores?

I seem to recall another generation in between, that's since been declared null, to which I would claim membership. As for comic book stores, I practically grew up on comics & spend most of the '80s hanging out in my local store. I have very fond memories of the people I knew. The same crowd every Friday & Saturday, as the new stock came in...

There's only one Newton-John, too.

Amen.

Now that would be telling! But if they did, what would we possibly call the iconic trope that is named for him?

Not my problem. (It's looking like it'll be the "'Mash' Masciarelli Syndrome", tho.)

his real name is indeed spelled Masciarelli, which would be pronounced "Mash"

Which means I should have looked it up.

Allow me to repeat what the poster says so succinctly: Clint Eastwood Is Dirty Harry

Absolutely, utterly no argument. Just sayin'.

And thank you very much for the suggestion!

Glad to do it.

I have heard that story, yes. Here, more of them sell (again, better economy), though still probably not all of them.

I got a strong sense nobody connected to the film really understood how iconic they'd turn out to be. (Of course, when Barris built Ala Kart, all it managed was a few background appearances... And even The California Kid didn't become an immediate hit AFAIK.)

It's pretty obvious that the crowd was added in post; they sound far too "clean" and come in so obviously on cue.

To which I repeat, you've got a better ear for it than me. I had no idea. (I do agree, it makes it work.)

See, when I was a kid, the "box on wheels" style was still in vogue. I actually miss it, myself

I'm a big fan of the simple but classic: the '65 Rambler American, '67 Dart, so forth. Not to say the '70 Cuda doesn't look great, nor the Porsche 9111/912, or the Boxster... Tailfins make me cringe.

The practice of casting actors far too old for their parts is nothing new

Considering the headaches involved in casting teens when you can cast young-looking adults, I do get it. Would you want to deal with scheduling limits & paying tutors & who knows what else, if you didn't have to?

That is a most intriguing guess, which I will neither confirm nor deny

And the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your TL, too.

 

[Brainbin]

I just wanted to say that I am reading, but don't actually know enough about subject matters of the update to say more than 'it looks interesting'.

Thank you, LordInsane, I really appreciate that

Wondering if Trans-Atlantic cultural osmosis might lead to an earlier, less Glam-influenced, revival of the Teddy Boy subculture?

Having made some preliminary investigations into the subculture in question, that looks like a very logical consequence of the retro nostalgia wave. It's also a nice way to demonstrate the reciprocity of cultural influences crossing the pond. The feeling ITTL, at this juncture, is that Britain is wielding disproportionate influence on the United States (hence the notion of a "Second British Invasion"). Here's a way to demonstrate that The Yanks Are Coming, as well

It would be nice to think that Britains' economy might be in (slightly) better shape than OTL too.

A better U.S. economy will naturally benefit its closest allies. Canada, Western Europe, Japan, and Australasia are all in a better situation ITTL. Australia, given their intimate involvement in the overseas quagmire (or, as they might call it, the cross-archipelago quagmire), is probably doing the best of all relative to OTL, compared to all of the other First World powers (excluding the USA itself). What does all this mean? There's only one way to find out!

That might hold out some hope that the Skinhead subculture might never become poisoned with Far Right racist bile.

I can't promise anything. It doesn't help that such purely concentrated extremism can taint anything, with as little as a passing glance...

If she stayed out of acting entirely, I could live with it. Especially if she didn't do "Xanadu". (She really deserved better.) I only mean, with that voice, she deserves an equal match if she does do "Greased Lightning". (I can't think of anybody who could act and sing from that period, tho.)

I can think of many people; the problem is that they're too old. Not that it didn't stop them from trying anyway, IOTL (Diana Ross in The Wiz, Barbra Streisand in Yentl...)

Actually, she took quite a bit of heat for her country records for being too "non-traditional".

Really? Have they ever not complained about that? They probably said the same about Hank Williams

I don't see why not, either, myself. Crystal did a pretty good 80yr old Jew, so I'm guessing he could put on the right voice (or lose it), as needed.

He's a better actor than he's been given credit for, IOTL. I think he could pull off pathos at least as well as Robin Williams, who made a career out of it.

I wonder if it's not human nature to remember "the good old days", to forget the bad even in the worst of times. (I can't imagine the Depression being seen as "good", but did anybody have good memories from those times? I suspect some did. Which is, a bit ironically, thematic of "The Way We Were" & "American Grafitti", both.)

Oddly, there were a number of Depression-era nostalgia pieces released in the early 1970s IOTL (and ITTL), "The Waltons" (here, "Spencer's Mountain") and The Sting, among them. And there is a romance about the Depression; the exact same romance that attracts people to feudal and frontier societies.

I seem to recall another generation in between, that's since been declared null, to which I would claim membership.

I vaguely recall this generation, myself. The youthful hot-shots, the upwardly mobile bankers, day traders, executives... big hair, big suits, cocaine... the workhorse of Reaganomics. Think Wall Street or Working Girl. Would you consider yourself affiliated with that generation?

To which I repeat, you've got a better ear for it than me. I had no idea. (I do agree, it makes it work.)

The best way to tell the difference is by direct comparison. Listen to "Bennie" immediately before or after the 1986 Australian version of "Candle", or the duet version of "Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me" with George Michael, both of which were performed before a live audience.

I'm a big fan of the simple but classic: the '65 Rambler American, '67 Dart, so forth. Not to say the '70 Cuda doesn't look great, nor the Porsche 9111/912, or the Boxster... Tailfins make me cringe.

I think we all know what the greatest car was. The DeLorean DMC-12, of course! (Who cares if it was a lemon, it looked fantastic. And it could travel through time! )

Considering the headaches involved in casting teens when you can cast young-looking adults, I do get it. Would you want to deal with scheduling limits & paying tutors & who knows what else, if you didn't have to?

There's a certain authenticity that casting real youth gives you, and there's no amount of polish or experience any twenty-something could possibly have that would compensate for that. Obviously, there are practical and ethical considerations, but it's usually a good idea to cast people who are as similar to their characters as possible.

The next couple of weeks are the high-water mark of interference from RL, I'm afraid. There will be no update this weekend, and I can't guarantee one next weekend, either. I'll have one ready as soon as possible. In the meantime, please feel free to discuss relevant topics in this thread, and I'll chime in whenever and wherever possible. Also, I again invite any of my readers to name their Top 10 episodes of Star Trek, to add more samples to the existing list. Thank you all so much for your patience. I hope that when this busy time is over, I'll be able to provide this timeline my full attention.

 

[Falkenburg]

I think we all know what the greatest car was. The DeLorean DMC-12, of course! (Who cares if it was a lemon, it looked fantastic. And it could travel through time! )

I wonder if Belfast will get around to building a Museum to the DeLorean in a hundred years, or so?

How they came to build that car, in that town, at that time, is one of those stories of OTL that any sane person would deride as ASB if proposed in an ATL.

Odd coincidence, Olivia Newton John is currently touring the UK with her latest album.
Small world.

Falkenburg

 

[pbaustin2]

the POD was in 1966, five years after Michael J. Fox's birth. and since the POD was in late 1966, everyone born until early 1967 is still born as they were in OTL so we could see some interesting cameos when That Wacky Redhead reaches the Eighties.

 

[phx1138]

I can think of many people; the problem is that they're too old. Not that it didn't stop them from trying anyway, IOTL (Diana Ross in The Wiz, Barbra Streisand in Yentl...)

I presumed you understood "age appropriate" was a given. Even if the average studio suit doesn't have a clue.

Really? Have they ever not complained about that? They probably said the same about Hank Williams

I couldn't say. My knowledge of country music stretches from Olivia to Poco & Lyle Lovett. (I've heard "6 Days on the Road", if that counts.)

He's a better actor than he's been given credit for, IOTL. I think he could pull off pathos

I'd agree with that.

Oddly, there were a number of Depression-era nostalgia pieces released in the early 1970s IOTL (and ITTL), "The Waltons" (here, "Spencer's Mountain") and The Sting, among them. And there is a romance about the Depression; the exact same romance that attracts people to feudal and frontier societies.

I'm thinking of genuine memory, not Hollywood whitewash. A nostalgic treatment of any period, however bad, in film or TV is bound to overlook or gloss the bad.

I vaguely recall this generation, myself. The youthful hot-shots, the upwardly mobile bankers, day traders, executives... big hair, big suits, cocaine... the workhorse of Reaganomics. Think Wall Street or Working Girl. Would you consider yourself affiliated with that generation?

By birth, probably. By inclination, no.

I think we all know what the greatest car was. The DeLorean DMC-12, of course! (Who cares if it was a lemon, it looked fantastic. And it could travel through time! )

There's a certain authenticity that casting real youth gives you, and there's no amount of polish or experience any twenty-something could possibly have that would compensate for that. Obviously, there are practical and ethical considerations, but it's usually a good idea to cast people who are as similar to their characters as possible.

In many cases, I'd agree. After about 15, tho, casting an 18yr old, instead, isn't unreasonable. A 20-something, maybe, under 25, if the actor can pass for the younger. Think of Sarah Michelle Gellar in "Buffy": 18 playing 16, IIRC. She looked younger, & pulls it off. Alyson as Willow played younger, too. Charisma was playing the snooty bitch, so her being, & looking, a bit older wasn't far out of line (for me, anyhow). I won't say the "90210"s were young enough... And sheer duration works against, frex, "Smallville", even allowing Tom Welling & Allison Mack were young enough to begin with (& I'm agnostic on that).

we could see some interesting cameos when That Wacky Redhead reaches the Eighties

Please don't ask for convenient morphic twins...

Thank you all so much for your patience.

No worries, mate.

 

[NCW8]

Late to the party again

I've just managed to catch up with this Thread, and I must say it's been an enjoyable read. I particularly enjoyed the Star Trek/Dr Who crossover - I can just imagine the Doctor's first appearance on the episode with the Tardis materialising on the bridge of the Enterprise. Incedentally, having the Time Lords give the Doctor limited use of the Tardis is an idea that will almost certainly occur to the writers. Malcolm Hulke did exactly that in the eighth season story Colony in Space.

I hope that this scene from The Sea Devils still exists ITTL. It might serve as a back-door introduction of The Clangers to the US. With their enviromental themes and space setting, they would be a good fit in the children's programming of the time, however I suspect that their format and lack of episode (only 26 eight minute episodes) would mean that they don't fit into US TV schedules.

With the success of Dr Who in the US, I can definitely see Terry Nation brushing up his spin-off pilot episode, The Destroyers. The pilot was based around the conflict between the Space Security Service and the Daleks (seen in The Dalek's Master Plan ), however given the crossover episode, the SPS could be replaced by Star Fleet, making it a spin-off of Star Trek as well. This could help it sell in the american market. It would probably be darker and grittier than the original series and incorporate ideas that Nation used in Blakes Seven IOTL.

An alternative rewrite of the Pilot would be to bring it into the present day and show UNIT fighting off an invasion of the Daleks. The devastation caused by the Daleks would give it something of a Survivors feel. However, having UNIT fight a guerilla war against the Daleks could remind american audiences of their recent overseas entanglements, with unfortunate inferrences (the guerillas are the GOOD guys ?). I can't see this doing so well in the US, but it might have been popular in the UK.

On the subject of UK politics, I think it should be fairly easy to change the result of the 1970 election. The late swing to the Conservatives is thought to be due to poor balance of payments figures released just before poling day plus the bad news of England being eliminated from the World Cup. I think that you've said that the UK economy is slightly better off ITTL and that alone might be enough to change the result. Alternatively, having England win the quarter final (maybe Gordon Banks doesn't fall ill ) or just having the election held a couple of weeks earlier could change things.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Brainbin]

I wonder if Belfast will get around to building a Museum to the DeLorean in a hundred years, or so?

Obviously, they need to have something ready in time for 2015

How they came to build that car, in that town, at that time, is one of those stories of OTL that any sane person would deride as ASB if proposed in an ATL.

You know what they say: truth is stranger than fiction! Or, alternatively, the difference between reality and fiction is that the latter has to make sense!

the POD was in 1966, five years after Michael J. Fox's birth. and since the POD was in late 1966, everyone born until early 1967 is still born as they were in OTL so we could see some interesting cameos when That Wacky Redhead reaches the Eighties.

Welcome aboard, pbaustin! One thing to take into account is that people who were very young at the time of the POD, like Fox, will have a whole lot of growing up to do, in a world that's rather different from our own. Who knows what career path some of them might take? That said, we may well see a few familiar faces in the years ahead...

I presumed you understood "age appropriate" was a given. Even if the average studio suit doesn't have a clue.

To be fair, in the long run, ever since the Golden Age, they have been getting better at casting younger. Witness the 1936 film version of Romeo & Juliet, in which 43-year-old Leslie Howard stars as Romeo, and Norma Shearer as Juliet (the youngest of the major players, by a considerable margin) was 34. Contrast a more contemporary film with a famously aged cast, Grease. Even the senior member of the cast, Stockard Channing, was "only" 33! And on 90210, Gabrielle Carteris was actually still in her 20s!

I'd agree with that.

He was the only celebrity guest star in the cavalcade of cameos that was Kenneth Branagh's Hamlet who was even the least bit convincing. (Most of them stuck out like a sore thumb. I don't know who was worse - Jack Lemmon or - ironically enough - Robin Williams).

In many cases, I'd agree. After about 15, tho, casting an 18yr old, instead, isn't unreasonable. A 20-something, maybe, under 25, if the actor can pass for the younger. Think of Sarah Michelle Gellar in "Buffy": 18 playing 16, IIRC. She looked younger, & pulls it off. Alyson as Willow played younger, too. Charisma was playing the snooty bitch, so her being, & looking, a bit older wasn't far out of line (for me, anyhow).

Sorry. Even if I agreed with you that they could pass for teenagers (and on the whole, they couldn't, except maybe for the petite and relatively youthful Gellar), they all carry themselves as young adults. It doesn't help that their dialogue sounds like it was written by a thirty-something who fancies himself the smartest, hippest guy in the room.

I won't say the "90210"s were young enough...

Believe it or not, Luke Perry (whose famous forehead wrinkles made him look older than he was), Ian Ziering, and (obviously) Carteris aside, everyone else in the core cast was 21 or under when they started. It's only because of the sheer audacity of the outlying representatives that the show as a whole has this reputation. (Douglas Emerson, who played Scott Scanlon in the first two seasons, actually was 15, but of course they had to get rid of him).

And sheer duration works against, frex, "Smallville", even allowing Tom Welling & Allison Mack were young enough to begin with

They weren't. Welling especially looked way too old and too buff for the part. The funniest thing about Smallville, though, was that the actress they cast for Lois Lane (Erica Durance) was actually older than the one cast for Superman Returns (the annoyingly ubiquitous - and talentless - Kate Bosworth), when it should be the reverse!

I've just managed to catch up with this Thread, and I must say it's been an enjoyable read.

Thank you, Nigel, and welcome aboard!

I particularly enjoyed the Star Trek/Dr Who crossover - I can just imagine the Doctor's first appearance on the episode with the Tardis materialising on the bridge of the Enterprise.

The transporter room, actually - it would be too cluttered on the bridge. (It also allows for a nice confluence between Star Trek technology and Doctor Who technology. And the transporters have always had a mind of their own anyway - poor Mr. Kyle won't know what to do with himself!

In reference to your proposals on possible spinoffs, we'll next be revisiting Doctor Who in the next couple of cycles, to present a concluding summary of the "Yank Years". That's when I'll talk about further developments for the property, as well as the plans of affiliated producers like Terry Nation, not to mention the rise of potential competition. Thank you for your many suggestions; they should form a fine reference for that eventual update.

On the subject of UK politics, I think it should be fairly easy to change the result of the 1970 election. The late swing to the Conservatives is thought to be due to poor balance of payments figures released just before poling day plus the bad news of England being eliminated from the World Cup. I think that you've said that the UK economy is slightly better off ITTL and that alone might be enough to change the result. Alternatively, having England win the quarter final (maybe Gordon Banks doesn't fall ill ) or just having the election held a couple of weeks earlier could change things.

Many of these same points were raised when I discussed the event with a consultant, right down to referencing the exact same timeline. I won't reveal whether I chose to retain Wilson or elect Heath, but I will divulge that the decision I made was a critical one that will tie into other important events elsewhere, as has so often been the case in developing this timeline. But thank you very much for your input, because you've confirmed a number of important points.

Still too early to say when the next update will be ready, I'm afraid. In the meantime, I continue to appreciate your patience and understanding!

 

[phx1138]

To be fair, in the long run, ever since the Golden Age, they have been getting better at casting younger. Witness the 1936 film version of Romeo & Juliet, in which 43-year-old Leslie Howard stars as Romeo, and Norma Shearer as Juliet (the youngest of the major players, by a considerable margin) was 34. Contrast a more contemporary film with a famously aged cast, Grease. Even the senior member of the cast, Stockard Channing, was "only" 33! And on 90210, Gabrielle Carteris was actually still in her 20s!

I recall hearing once how surprised everyone was when the '68 film version of "Romeo & Juliet" (with Olivia Hussey) was cast that both leads were actually teenagers.

Sorry. Even if I agreed with you that they could pass for teenagers (and on the whole, they couldn't, except maybe for the petite and relatively youthful Gellar), they all carry themselves as young adults. It doesn't help that their dialogue sounds like it was written by a thirty-something who fancies himself the smartest, hippest guy in the room.

Presumably I was too old to notice, then.

Believe it or not, Luke Perry (whose famous forehead wrinkles made him look older than he was), Ian Ziering, and (obviously) Carteris aside, everyone else in the core cast was 21 or under when they started. It's only because of the sheer audacity of the outlying representatives that the show as a whole has this reputation. (Douglas Emerson, who played Scott Scanlon in the first two seasons, actually was 15, but of course they had to get rid of him).

That does surprise me.

They weren't. Welling especially looked way too old and too buff for the part. The funniest thing about Smallville, though, was that the actress they cast for Lois Lane (Erica Durance) was actually older than the one cast for Superman Returns (the annoyingly ubiquitous - and talentless - Kate Bosworth), when it should be the reverse!

Erica wasn't the only one. By that time, Tom was older than the film Supes, too. (He wasn't your Batbane, was he?) That's what you get for having a successful series.

 

[pbaustin2]

I wonder how the Soviets are reacting to the new television and cultural landscape of the West?

 

[Glen]

I wonder how the Soviets are reacting to the new television and cultural landscape of the West?

imagine they still see it much as in OTL with the glaring omission of MASH - makes you wonder how much they read into that OTL.

 

[Glen]

On the name that must be spoken - the timing of the fall of the South is questionable. While not the only factor, the longer Congress is willing to send financial aid for their military the better their odds of forestalling collapse/invasion. The longer the South lasts from the time of US withdrawal the less it may be seen as a US defeat as opposed to just a third world dispute. This is important for determining the effect on the Zeitgeist of America in the near future,which in turn would impact the arts of the time.

 

[NCW8]

I wonder how the Soviets are reacting to the new television and cultural landscape of the West?

A longer running and more successful Star Trek which includes a Russian as a major character in a sympathetic (if sterotypical way) might please them. Also there is no Omega Glory ITTL and while the Federation/Klingon conflict is an obvious parallel to the US/USSR cold war, it is not entirely negative to the USSR. Indeed the series finale shows them co-operating against the Romulans (who can be seen as stand-ins for the Chinese).

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Brainbin]

I recall hearing once how surprised everyone was when the '68 film version of "Romeo & Juliet" (with Olivia Hussey) was cast that both leads were actually teenagers.

I've never seen the 1936 version, but I have since the 1996 Baz Luhrmann version, which also had a relatively young cast (DiCaprio was 21, Danes was 16), and the Zeffirelli version blowed it out of the water. There are many reasons why this was the case, and I believe that having younger actors (Whiting was 17, Hussey was 15) was a factor. There's a greater emotional honesty there, which is part of the reason why they gave better performances. The direction no doubt played a part, as does Luhrmann's ludicrous decision to "modernize" the setting. (Still not the worst "modern-day" version of a Shakespeare play, though; that dubious honour goes to the 2000 version of Hamlet, starring Ethan Hawke as the scion of Denmark Corporation). I liked Claire Danes in "My So-Called Life" as much as anyone, but Hussey was magnificent as Juliet. Still probably my favourite screen Juliet. Whiting definitely trumped DiCaprio, as well. I've mentioned before, that certain actors - even very good ones - can founder without strong direction, and Leo is definitely one of them. (At least he wasn't wearing his patented spoiled-little-kid-scowl face for the whole movie).

Erica wasn't the only one. By that time, Tom was older than the film Supes, too. (He wasn't your Batbane, was he?) That's what you get for having a successful series.

That's true, but I'm willing to call that justifiable, for a few reasons. First of all, Routh strongly resembles Christopher Reeve, which is important for continuity purposes (though this is capsized by Bosworth looking and sounding absolutely nothing like Margot Kidder). Also, Superman is Kryptonian, and would presumably age more slowly than humans, so even in-universe it does make some measure of sense... though once again, since Bosworth also looks much younger, it weakens that effect. I'm glad her career is stalling now, because a few years ago she seemed to be in everything and I really don't get why. Does she have something on all these directors? Has she threatened to blackmail them? Obviously, I really don't like her at all. Though I do like her name. Bosworth. The perfect name for a butler, valet, or chauffeur

I wonder how the Soviets are reacting to the new television and cultural landscape of the West?

imagine they still see it much as in OTL with the glaring omission of MASH - makes you wonder how much they read into that OTL.

A longer running and more successful Star Trek which includes a Russian as a major character in a sympathetic (if sterotypical way) might please them. Also there is no Omega Glory ITTL and while the Federation/Klingon conflict is an obvious parallel to the US/USSR cold war, it is not entirely negative to the USSR. Indeed the series finale shows them co-operating against the Romulans (who can be seen as stand-ins for the Chinese).

You're all raising some good points. We've touched on Soviet culture before, and with the information provided so far, they've got cause to celebrate relative to OTL - Bobby Fischer did not win the World Chess Championship from Boris Spassky, meaning that it remains in Soviet hands. Likewise, Canada narrowly lost the Summit Series vs. the USSR, and thus the Soviets are more or less established as the masters of hockey, much to the chagrin of the Canadian national psyche (which has resulted in major changes in Canada). Losing the space race aside, they're flying relatively high at the moment, and we'll touch more on their space program very soon.

With regards to Star Trek, Nigel has picked up on a lot of the finer nuances of my intended political subtext, but I'll lay it all out there for the official record: as IOTL, the Federation represents the Western Allies, the Klingons are Soviet Russia, and the Romulans are Red China. However, ITTL, the Klingons and Romulans are not allied or even on very good terms, as a direct allegory of the Sino-Soviet split. (IOTL, the Klingon-Romulan "alliance" happened due to budget limitations, which necessitated the use of a Klingon ship model to portray a Romulan ship). This means that there's a tripartite Cold War situation going on. ITTL, detente emerges after the conclusion of the overseas quagmire, though in more muted and low-key fashion. Meanwhile, the USA and Red China still have very chilly relations. Humphrey couldn't go to China even if he wanted to, his foreign policy capital having been expended on ending the overseas quagmire. This combination results in Red China, and not Soviet Russia, being seen as quite possibly a greater potential threat in the future, which is why their analogue in Star Trek emerges as the ultimate villain. Because all-out war is breaking out, they have to shift to WWII allegory. Thus, the Romulans become Imperial Japan, and the Federation and the Klingons become unlikely allies against a mutual threat.

The good news is, my schedule is going to become much lighter starting this weekend. Also, my preliminary work for my next update is also substantially complete, with the invaluable assistance of my consultants. Therefore, I hope to have it ready on or before May 1. And that will mark the conclusion of the 1972-73 cycle!

 

[phx1138]

I've never seen the 1936 version...

Evidently, I should stay away from anything film related here. I don't have nearly the appreciation of the subtleties you do.

That's true, but I'm willing to call that justifiable, for a few reasons. First of all, Routh strongly resembles Christopher Reeve, which is important for continuity purposes

I'll give you that one.

Also, Superman is Kryptonian, and would presumably age more slowly than humans, so even in-universe it does make some measure of sense...

I have no problem with Supes aging more slowly. It's him being visibly younger as an adult than his "teen" self that I meant. In this instance, using an older actor & playing younger might make the most sense: with his powers, he would have to be more mature, more disciplined. Also, as a Kryptonian, who says his mental development doesn't give him the impulse control human teens don't have? (Think Vulcan. {Hmm...})

Bosworth. The perfect name for a butler, valet, or chauffeur

That's mean.

With regards to Star Trek, Nigel has picked up on a lot of the finer nuances of my intended political subtext, but I'll lay it all out there for the official record: as IOTL, the Federation represents the Western Allies, the Klingons are Soviet Russia, and the Romulans are Red China. However, ITTL, the Klingons and Romulans are not allied or even on very good terms, as a direct allegory of the Sino-Soviet split. (IOTL, the Klingon-Romulan "alliance" happened due to budget limitations, which necessitated the use of a Klingon ship model to portray a Romulan ship). This means that there's a tripartite Cold War situation going on. ITTL, detente emerges after the conclusion of the overseas quagmire, though in more muted and low-key fashion. Meanwhile, the USA and Red China still have very chilly relations. ...This combination results in Red China, and not Soviet Russia, being seen as quite possibly a greater potential threat in the future, which is why their analogue in Star Trek emerges as the ultimate villain. Because all-out war is breaking out, they have to shift to WWII allegory. Thus, the Romulans become Imperial Japan, and the Federation and the Klingons become unlikely allies against a mutual threat.

Given Sov mistrust of PRC, I'm not sure you really need to bring Japan into it.

In other news, I'm (as I write this) watching the PBS doc "We Shall Remain" on the siege at Wounded Knee, which suggests Nixon being distracted by Watergate meant things went worse than they needed to. Is it too late iTTL to get that butterflied? (Presuming you want it to be, BB...)