That Wacky Redhead

[Glen]

Woah, I just wish I could see that Finale for real

And I'm watching you on that crossover

Must...have...crossover! I...need...my...crossover!

 

[Brainbin]

Thank you very much to all of you for your many, many wonderful comments! This last update really does feel like the end of a chapter for me, so I'm glad it seemed to go over so well with all of you. And now to repay your kindness, with some responses:

Enjoying the updates despite misgivings about The Crossover.
Still if it goes wrong it can always be decanoned

That's very true. And I can tell you that Star Trek, for one, is never going to refer to the crossover again. Even Doctor Who likely won't indulge in more than the occasional one-liner call back to the adventure with those people on that ship.

You may have your misgivings about that crossover but there were plans for a similiar crossover iOTL only there were made more than thirty years later and they failed because "Enterprise" had not been renewed for a fifth season.

Yes, that was one of the inspirations for the idea of a crossover. But as the Professor points out...

There were no recent plans just some ideas by Rassilon T Davies that got too much publicity post facto.
The only time such a crossover would be possible - considering the negotiations needed by 2 studios and sundry producers and writers - would be when both shows are popular but needing access to another market; ie the late 60s

The early '70s, actually IOTL, Star Trek had already been cancelled before ever airing on the BBC; ITTL, the fourth season was in production. Thus, this opens a window of opportunity, though everything still has to line up perfectly. (With a more "conventional" POD, say "NBC picks up the original pilot", then we could see a late '60s crossover: between Captain Pike and his crew, and the Second Doctor.)

Wow...this was amazing.

Thank you very much. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I hope it sufficiently answers the question you asked at the beginning of this thread

Have you read Solow and Justman's excellent book? (You probably have...)

It has proven an invaluable resource in writing this timeline. I give it my highest possible recommendation

One ASB idea for Nimoy...could he become more religious?

Why would this be ASB? As you point out, his religion has been a very important part of his life IOTL, which informed his portrayal of Spock (the Vulcan salute being taken from a priestly blessing), and his late-life hobbies (such as the "Shekhinah" project). And of course, at the moment he's feeling down and out, a point at which many people seek spiritual guidance and reflection.

Good Lord, that was entertaining, and even a bit touching.

Thank you, vultan. Touching is definitely what I was going for; there's a reason that people still love this show, ITTL and IOTL.

Did the Gorn ever return after Arena?

No, because the higher-ups at Desilu figure that they would have to pay and/or credit Fredric Brown for the use of them. (Not true IOTL, but here they're taking a "better safe than sorry" approach). Also, Coon reckons that the Gorn have served their purpose.

How about the Tribbles?

The Tribbles are the focus of a fourth-season episode, "More Tribbles, More Troubles", similar to the TAS episode of the same name. (Gerrold had originally developed it for the OTL third season, but it was rejected.) They also cameo in at least one other episode.

If you could give us another movie or television series from any time series for comparison, how good were the starship and space battle effects by the last season?

By the last season, the effects are essentially 2001-level quality, though obviously not as ponderous (that having been a stylistic decision by Kubrick). They suffer from the low fidelity of early 1970s TV, but are still quite impressive. 40 years down the line, they would be described as "incredible for their time, and pretty good even today". Think of them as a bridge between 2001 and Star Wars-level effects.

Finally, with Niven writing an episode, did the Kzinti ever become part of Star Trek lore (John Chambers, who designed the makeup effects for Planet of the Apes as well as some stuff on Star Trek, including Spock's ears, could be up to the task of creating some "cat aliens"...)

The Kzinti do not feature in "The Borderland", so the short answer is no. Frankly, they belong in the Known Space universe anyway.

Impressive end to the season; impressive run for Trek overall.

It's been one heck of a ride, hasn't it?

Incidentally, the MASH finale (which obviously doesn't happen ITTL, what with no MASH) got a 60.2 rating and a 77 share.

Believe me, I know. That 60.2/77 has been burned in my brain for a very long time. But thanks for sharing it with everyone else

How much of the Klingon-Federation-Romulan conflict do we actually see, and how much do we learn through exposition?

Excellent question. I'll try to break it down for you: We learn of the expiration of the Organian Peace Treaty (and subsequent Declaration of War by the Klingons) from Sarek, who appears because Mark Lenard wanted a part in the series finale. He and Spock share an awkward but mostly heartfelt goodbye in the scene. Komack then comes on and announces that the Enterprise is to proceed to the Federation-Klingon border. Soon after arriving, they encounter Kor, who has specifically warned all the other Klingon ships away from the Enterprise ("Kirk is my quarry"). The two ships get into a dogfight, which is shown more-or-less in full. The Enterprise is slightly stronger than Kor's ship, but the fight is fairly evenly matched. Then the Romulan ships (three of them) decloak, eager to prey upon the two flagships of the respective enemy fleets. They go after the Enterprise first, before Kor takes out one Romulan ship and badly damages another, and all of this action is also seen. The remaining fully operational ship takes out Kor's ship, killing Kor (whose last words are: "They will not have you, Kirk! If I cannot best you, then no one else ever will!") and his crew. The Enterprise is then able to defeat the last ship, leaving the two derelicts behind. A point is made of all three sides sending out subspace signals to nearby allies, and it's from this that the Federation-Klingon truce is forged (which we do not see). The Enterprise hobbles off to the nearest starbase, but is intercepted by a stronger Romulan Bird-of-Prey, which is about to deliver the finishing blow when, suddenly, it ceases fire; Komack comes on to announce the tripartite truce. He then explains the success of the "allied" Federation and Klingon forces (fulfilling the Organian prediction), and as he narrates, we are shown Federation and Klingon ships pushing Romulan ships back, in a montage. Then cut back to Kirk, who orders the ship to Starbase 10, leading to the denouement. (In syndication, Part One ends right after the Romulan ambush is revealed.)

So, what's next for Desilu?

There's only one way to find out!

Very nice. Am still looking forward to your description of that crossover eppy.

Thank you. It's coming up next.

Double ditto here.

Really, Glen? I had no idea

BTW,did you just hint that TTL's Happy Days analogue would be a Desilu production?

I just hinted that Eddie Milkis would become involved with it. Because...

Which makes me wonder, if Paramount still produced "Love, American Style"? Marshall called it the place "where failed sitcom pilots went to die". That's where his pilot ended up before it gained a second life via Miller-Milkis Productions & Paramount Television.

Milkis, you say? Hmmm. Where have I heard that name before?

I have fond memories of "Love, American Style". Of course, I saw it in syndication, I'm old but not that old.

I would be careful if I were you - a number of the people reading this thread are that old

One comment about the 'stale' episodes - that issue might only applies to people watching the episodes during original airing. With the production values and budgets increasing every year, the similar plot late episodes aired out of joint in syndication may actually be better regarded by the audience than the episodes that first explored those plots as they may look cheap and clumbsy - of course, a lot of that depends on how the cast handle those episodes.

You raise an excellent point, Glen - and some of what you're saying will be discussed in the "legacy and aftermath" update I mentioned earlier, but I want to make one point right now that should be some food for thought. IOTL, syndication made Star Trek, and its audience grew throughout the 1970s. Very few people had seen the original run. But ITTL, ratings are appreciably higher as early as the second season, and over 10 million households are watching by 1968. The Star Trek fandom - though larger and more diverse - will have reached consensus opinions on every episode and its relative quality before the end of 1971.

Given his success (greater than OTL), IMO you'd need to offer him something pretty juicy to lure him back here.

Don't forget; Doohan was arguably the most pigeon-holed of all the Star Trek actors. Granted, he turned this to his advantage IOTL, but wouldn't you argue that the greater success and exposure of TTL would make such a thing happen even more quickly?

I wonder, would "THX1138" do better?

You'll find out, when I post the update discussing science-fiction works of the early 1970s.

At your convenience.

All right, two more: "Sledge Hammer!" and "Misfits of Science".

(At least "Hobo" was a good show, before some Canadian turnipsuit decided to remake it. {I'm frankly astounded the remake went longer.})

Are you on record as disliking the iconic 1980s series? But... "Maybe Tomorrow"! Maybe... tomorrow...

I don't suggest she'd give away the store, by any means. Just pinch a penny or two less.

I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to see just how generous That Wacky Redhead can be.

I became convinced, in the '80s, it was a clause in the Film Canada rules that, to get money from them, you had to hire Jennifer Dale or Mike Ironside, preferably both.

Don't forget, all productions filmed in Toronto are required by law to feature this annoyingly ubiquitous woman.

I've a vague recollection of this being about bad luck, & a couple almost deciding to stay on a small town based on a fortune cookie.

Your recollection serves you well. Except that it was a penny-operated "mystic seer".

Maybe it's me, I don't recall it being that bad.

Oh, I never said that it was bad; just that it was a classic example of Shatner being Shatner.

Bravo. Thank you on behalf of Larry. I've been a fan of his for years.

You're most welcome. For the man who brought the world "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex", I figured it was only fair to give him a chance with Star Trek. After all, he did want to write for it IOTL, hence "The Pastel Terror", though it was all wrong for the show. And technically, I'm just giving him a Hugo ahead of schedule; he won it for the same story (adapted for the Known Space universe) in 1975 IOTL.

Unless I'm very mistaken, they wouldn't even think of that. AFAIK, the word wouldn't be coined for about 20 more years.

I had the same inclination, so I investigated the origins of the word. Apparently it dates at least as far back as the early 1970s - I read one source saying the 1950s, even. The term comes from drug culture, which I think is appropriate, given that the contraband being smuggled in (a classic MacGuffin, which is never explicitly identified) is heavily implied to be drugs.

I do like him getting an entirely new ship, but I'm less sure you'd see promotion to Commodore: it's been an honorary title for the senior captain aboard.

I'm afraid you're mistaken; Commodore is a legitimate Starfleet rank, complete with sleeve insignia. You may be thinking of "Fleet Captain".

I particularly like the "life goes on" approach. IMO, that's what Gene would've done: figured out a way they could make peace.

So we'll say that those ideas came from Roddenberry, who then left the other, more capable writers to do the plotting, the pacing, the characterization, and the dialogue. But as for "life goes on", that's pretty common to the (relatively few) series finales of this era, and into the 1970s IOTL. Making peace is also a pragmatic decision; ending the show in the middle of a war wouldn't satisfy anyone.

And a happy, productive New Year to you, too.

Thank you very much I'm not sure how long I can keep up this level of output, but I'll do my best for as long as I can.

Great work, Brainbin!

Thank you

Also, regarding "Jonesing for Mudd... I got the impresion that he wasn't really sure what to call it, as this was all his own.

You got that right. Titles are my kryptonite. Fun fact: until mere minutes before I launched this timeline, it was going to be called I Love Desilu. Whatever you may think of That Wacky Redhead as a title, I think you can all agree that it sure beats that

I was thinking "Tribbles Rolling in the Mudd"

Sorry, no tribbles. But thanks for that comedy routine you wrote for me. It was a nice read

Could they bring Finnegan back for that episode too?

Sorry, no Finnigan either. "Shore Leave" left a bad taste in the mouths of the cast and crew; even Sturgeon isn't too fond of it.

I got that. The anachronism bugged me. Could have been "Mudding up with the Joneses"

No, that one's too terrible... even for me In the midst of this write-up, I did develop a better title; still wretchedly awful, but slightly more appropriate and unquestionably not anachronistic. I'll change the post to reflect it. But those of you reading this timeline however far down the line shall still be able to see my utter ineptitude with titles, preserved for posterity

Please, please, no more homage to 400 year old material.

Why not? We homage Shakespeare all the time, after all

Besides, it's closer to 300 years old But thanks for sharing your sketch, too. I obviously have some very creative readers

What the heck!I ignored this TL way too long.Good work.

Thank you very much, and welcome aboard

BTW what happens to Walt Disney and his planned EPCOT, etc?Do they vanish.No Disney World?

Walt Disney still dies on schedule, despite it technically being after the POD. I see no reason why any of the events of TTL would negatively impact the development and/or smooth operation of Walt Disney World, so expect no changes there.

Woah, I just wish I could see that Finale for real

High praise, indeed. Thank you very much I have to admit, I would have loved to have seen it, too

And I'm watching you on that crossover

Fear not; the torches, pitchforks, fruits and vegetables are plentiful, and can be found just down the hall and to your right

That way the canon of both series (to that date) is mostly intact and you don't need to shoehorn one history into the other.

I like your suggestion, but you're thinking like an internet-savvy, modern day writer. You've got to think like a 1970s-era studio executive instead. Would one of them care about maintaining the continuity for the sake of a one-off, never-to-be-repeated attempt to bring Doctor Who into the American market? (The answer is no.) So... just bear that in mind.

Must...have...crossover! I...need...my...crossover!

Thank you all again for your very kind words. Now, as I mentioned before, the crossover between Star Trek and Doctor Who is coming up next, and you can expect it to be ready in the next few days. So please, be patient!

 

[neamathla]

Milkis, you say? Hmmm. Where have I heard that name before?

The Milkis in Miller-Milkis is Edward K. Milkis (associate producer - Star Trek's third season and producer - Star Trek: The Next Generation's first season). On a side note, Miller-Milkis evolved into Miller-Boyett-Warren. Some of shows produced by the various incarnations of this company were Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, Mork and Mindy, Petrocelli, Bosom Buddies, Joanie Loves Chachi, Family Matters, Full House, The Hogan Family, Perfect Strangers, Step by Step, and Two of a Kind. Films include Silver Streak, Foul Play, and The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.

 

[phx1138]

By the last season, the effects are essentially 2001-level quality

That gives the later seasons a very, very different feel indeed: much better. IIRC, "Galactica" set a new record, $1 million/episode: "TOS" in this era would probably be setting records like it.

40 years down the line, they would be described as "incredible for their time, and pretty good even today". Think of them as a bridge between 2001 and Star Wars-level effects.

Considering the high regard for "2001" & "Silent Running" from this era, done by among the best in the biz then or since, "TOS" would probably be called "ground-breaking". That also fits my understanding of what the "Big 5" were often after, pushing the fx companies to do new things to get the fx the team wanted.

It's been one heck of a ride, hasn't it?

And a sad day for all the Trekkers. But, like the conclusion of "NYPD Blue", a good ending.

Excellent question. I'll try to break it down for you: We learn of the expiration of the Organian Peace Treaty (and subsequent Declaration of War by the Klingons) from Sarek, who appears because Mark Lenard wanted a part in the series finale. He and Spock share an awkward but mostly heartfelt goodbye in the scene. Komack then comes on and announces that the Enterprise is to proceed to the Federation-Klingon border. Soon after arriving, they encounter Kor, who has specifically warned all the other Klingon ships away from the Enterprise ("Kirk is my quarry"). The two ships get into a dogfight, which is shown more-or-less in full. The Enterprise is slightly stronger than Kor's ship, but the fight is fairly evenly matched. Then the Romulan ships (three of them) decloak, eager to prey upon the two flagships of the respective enemy fleets. They go after the Enterprise first, before Kor takes out one Romulan ship and badly damages another, and all of this action is also seen. The remaining fully operational ship takes out Kor's ship, killing Kor (whose last words are: "They will not have you, Kirk! If I cannot best you, then no one else ever will!") and his crew. The Enterprise is then able to defeat the last ship, leaving the two derelicts behind. A point is made of all three sides sending out subspace signals to nearby allies, and it's from this that the Federation-Klingon truce is forged (which we do not see). The Enterprise hobbles off to the nearest starbase, but is intercepted by a stronger Romulan Bird-of-Prey, which is about to deliver the finishing blow when, suddenly, it ceases fire; Komack comes on to announce the tripartite truce. He then explains the success of the "allied" Federation and Klingon forces (fulfilling the Organian prediction), and as he narrates, we are shown Federation and Klingon ships pushing Romulan ships back, in a montage. Then cut back to Kirk, who orders the ship to Starbase 10, leading to the denouement.

Would you say that could see theatrical release into art houses & such? I'd certainly imagine repackaging as a TV movie for rebroadcast.

I would be careful if I were you - a number of the people reading this thread are that old

Moi, for one. (I don't remember it well, mind you. I was about 8. Same reason I remember "MTM" debut. And "Lou Grant". {Which, BTW, don't you dare even consider butterflying away.})

Don't forget; Doohan was arguably the most pigeon-holed of all the Star Trek actors. Granted, he turned this to his advantage IOTL, but wouldn't you argue that the greater success and exposure of TTL would make such a thing happen even more quickly?

True, typecasting could be a problem. OTOH, if he's offered something interesting, he'd take it. I meant in the sense of a good "non-Scotty" role, rather than high salary. Picture him in, say, "The Grey Fox" (a bit late, but an idea), or as the bad guy in "Juggernaut" (a quite small role...).

You'll find out, when I post the update discussing science-fiction works of the early 1970s.

Again, more a suggestion than a question.

All right, two more: "Sledge Hammer!" and "Misfits of Science".

Two strikes.

Are you on record as disliking the iconic 1980s series? But... "Maybe Tomorrow"! Maybe... tomorrow...

Firmly. The dog in the B&Ws was much better IMO. I suspect, if I'd never seen the B&W version, I'd have liked the later one just fine. As it turned out...

I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to see just how generous That Wacky Redhead can be.

Don't forget, all productions filmed in Toronto are required by law to feature this annoyingly ubiquitous woman.

TBH, I didn't notice that. I do believe it.

Your recollection serves you well. Except that it was a penny-operated "mystic seer".

As you mention it, I recall the machine. It was the slips of paper that had me thinking "fortune cookie".

Oh, I never said that it was bad; just that it was a classic example of Shatner being Shatner.

Somebody once criticised his character portrayals, before he realized it wasn't a character thing: it was Shat. (I do wonder about him in Culp's role in "GAH". I heard Culp criticized as hammy, but I found it worked for the character. Maybe it was me...)

For the man who brought the world "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"

That should be required reading.

I figured it was only fair to give him a chance with Star Trek. After all, he did want to write for it IOTL, hence "The Pastel Terror", though it was all wrong for the show. And technically, I'm just giving him a Hugo ahead of schedule; he won it for the same story (adapted for the Known Space universe) in 1975 IOTL.

Any time one of my fave writers gets work on one of my fave shows...

I had the same inclination, so I investigated the origins of the word. Apparently it dates at least as far back as the early 1970s - I read one source saying the 1950s, even. The term comes from drug culture, which I think is appropriate, given that the contraband being smuggled in (a classic MacGuffin, which is never explicitly identified) is heavily implied to be drugs.

I would never have guessed. And I should have known you'd done your homework on it.

I'm afraid you're mistaken; Commodore is a legitimate Starfleet rank, complete with sleeve insignia. You may be thinking of "Fleet Captain".

Faulty memory. (Couldn't recall if Matt Decker was wearing Captain's stripes or not.) I know it's differed in USN practise...

So we'll say that those ideas came from Roddenberry, who then left the other, more capable writers to do the plotting, the pacing, the characterization, and the dialogue. But as for "life goes on", that's pretty common to the (relatively few) series finales of this era, and into the 1970s IOTL. Making peace is also a pragmatic decision; ending the show in the middle of a war wouldn't satisfy anyone.

Times have changed, haven't they? (Tho how many weddings were show-enders? Not counting one or two that probably should've been, including "Remington Steele".)

You got that right. Titles are my kryptonite. Fun fact: until mere minutes before I launched this timeline, it was going to be called I Love Desilu. Whatever you may think of That Wacky Redhead as a title, I think you can all agree that it sure beats that

(I'd still have looked at it, myself, but it's an easy bet you'd have gotten fewer views. How many people can name the studio a show is produced by?)

Sorry, no Finnigan either. "Shore Leave" left a bad taste in the mouths of the cast and crew; even Sturgeon isn't too fond of it.

Not terrible execution...if below par IMO.

No, that one's too terrible... even for me

Without knowing more about your imagined story, it's hard to fit one with only their names.

Why not? We homage Shakespeare all the time, after all

To begin with, I'm no particular fan of his. And whatever I think of him, or Bud & Lou, I don't put them in the same class as him. I wouldn't rule out everybody in Enterprise's crew knowing about them (or even knowing "Who's on first?" as well as "To be or not to be"). I'm just really annoyed how it's all about contemporary American stuff. Seriously, Tom Paris picking a '69 Camaro over a 20yr old Shuttle (Galileo 7?). Fat chance. Or space hippies & rock & roll? It'd be like a story set in today's fiction with characters smoking opium & listening to 17th Century chamber music (to crib David again): genuinely odd. (Which doesn't mean I didn't like Vic; I liked him a lot, more than the EMH. It was the underlying stuff that bugged me.)

Some of it is budget limits. Much of it is lack of imagination. It's the same thing that drove me nuts about the conclusion to Kirk's trial in "STVH": the aliens all applaud. Except Mark Lenard, who actually gets it. And that's the kind of thing that undermines the whole show. Simple changes can have an enormous impact on credibility. Imagine Vulcans without the Salute, without "Live long, & prosper". Now imagine if "TOS" Klingons had routinely wished each other "Qapla'"...

Besides, it's closer to 300 years old

Picky, picky, picky.

But thanks for sharing your sketch, too. I obviously have some very creative readers

I've had my ideas on Vulcan humor for awhile, now, not least the prospect of a fanfic piece for the Dominion War. (Which, as usual for me, has never gone much past an idea...)

Fear not; the torches, pitchforks, fruits and vegetables are plentiful, and can be found just down the hall and to your right

Kindling in the next stall?

 

[Glen]

Okay, so some other thoughts - I have been pondering George Lucas ITTL.

He is very likely to still make THX 1388. I also think he is likely to make American Graffiti. One big question is whether he will actually direct Apocalypse Now ITTL as it seemed hit or miss whether he would IOTL. If he does actually direct TTL's Apocalypse Now, it could interfere with making American Graffiti, but I think Lucas really does come to want to make this movie, and it will happen pretty much as he envisions it at some point (note that it may have differences in cast, though).

I think it actually LESS likely that Lucas will acquire the movie rights to Flash Gordan ITTL, as I believe that people will be looking at that property for revival sooner based on the popularity of Star Trek, therefore making it likely to be pricier and snapped up earlier.

It is possible that George Lucas will make a Space Opera ITTL at some point, as it was something he found interesting AND there's going to be a market for it - in fact, he may get the idea bought earlier than IOTL.

Note, given the MANY changes that occured in the history of Lucas' attempt to come up with a Space Opera story that eventually became Star Wars, it is HIGHLY likely that any Space Opera made by Lucas at this time will be very different from the one made IOTL. It may have similarities in names, and stylistically it will probably be similar and a trend setter, but it won't be OTL's Star Wars (it may not even be called Star Wars - Journal of the Whills anyone?).

 

[vultan]

Okay, so some other thoughts - I have been pondering George Lucas ITTL.

He is very likely to still make THX 1388. I also think he is likely to make American Graffiti. One big question is whether he will actually direct Apocalypse Now ITTL as it seemed hit or miss whether he would IOTL. If he does actually direct TTL's Apocalypse Now, it could interfere with making American Graffiti, but I think Lucas really does come to want to make this movie, and it will happen pretty much as he envisions it at some point (note that it may have differences in cast, though).

I think it actually LESS likely that Lucas will acquire the movie rights to Flash Gordan ITTL, as I believe that people will be looking at that property for revival sooner based on the popularity of Star Trek, therefore making it likely to be pricier and snapped up earlier.

It is possible that George Lucas will make a Space Opera ITTL at some point, as it was something he found interesting AND there's going to be a market for it - in fact, he may get the idea bought earlier than IOTL.

Note, given the MANY changes that occured in the history of Lucas' attempt to come up with a Space Opera story that eventually became Star Wars, it is HIGHLY likely that any Space Opera made by Lucas at this time will be very different from the one made IOTL. It may have similarities in names, and stylistically it will probably be similar and a trend setter, but it won't be OTL's Star Wars (it may not even be called Star Wars - Journal of the Whills anyone?).

Indeed, it could look like this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars:_Rough_Draft

Or this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars:_First_Draft

There are a plethora of interesting early drafts of Star Wars available. However, with space opera becoming more popular as a genre, there is a fear that it wouldn't be the singular achievement it was for Lucas in OTL, and it wouldn't stand out in the crowd of "Star Trek copycats".

I wonder who would buy the rights to Flash Gordon and produce it as a film? It could be someone surprisingly high profile. Remember, in OTL there was a serious movement to draft Francis Ford Coppola to direct Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and the guy they got, Robert Wise (director of The Sound of Music, West Side Story, and The Sand Pebbles) weren't nuthin' to spit at either. Since I'm assuming Star Trek in this timeline has done for science fiction by the last season what Star Wars did in OTL, we could have some high-profile directors clamoring for the material.

My two cents? Have Sam Peckinpah direct Flash Gordon. No, seriously. Nothing he made after Straw Dogs in OTL (1971) was really successful or worthwhile, so let him have a shot.

Also, with science fiction more successful, how's it's cousin, good ol' sword and sorcery fantasy, holding out? In OTL, after Star Wars was successful, fantasy films got a lot more attention and more were made. How are Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson doing? Also remember, in OTL, there was a draft to get Stanley Kubrick to direct the Lord of the Rings (by the Beatles, no less, but if it was done ITTL, keep it without em, please) trilogy around this time, and I've put on this site a fairly lengthy, "in-universe" description of how they would turn out.

The sad thing is, at the intersection of a President Hubert Humphrey timeline and a more successful Star Trek=film copycat timeline, there is a real possibility much of the dark and cynically beautiful films of New Hollywood are aborted...

 

[vultan]

Ah, here's the thread Kubrick's LOTR posted it at:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/di...4109&highlight=kubrick+lord+rings#post5204109

Problem is, it was discussion for Emperor Norton I's potential 70's timeline, but with all respect to him (and he's a great writer who WILL make a great timeline) but this (and half of my suggestions for it ) seem to tonally fit this timeline a bit better...

 

[vultan]

Now for some political speculation. I'm probably wrong, but here we go.

-Barring something huge, Ronald Reagan is the Republican nominee in 1972. He was runner-up to Nixon in the '68 primaries, so he's perfectly positioned by then. Given the general fatigue the electorate would feel after twelve years of Democrat domination, regardless of how good Humphrey is (see Bush 41, circa late 1991), I'd actually peg Reagan's chances of winning at a little over 50%. Seeing the brand he built around himself, this would actually fit nicely with the timeline's upbeat, optimistic feel.

-Still, all is not going to be necessarily better than OTL. Give Nixon credit: he was able to quietly complete desegregation while still sounding like a conservative who's tough on law-and-order, therefore he didn't alienate the Southern conservatives. I can't imagine Humprhey being as subtle, and there'll be a backlash against him and the other Democrats in the South. Expect a LOT of Lester Maddox/Jesse Helms/Larry McDonald types getting elected to Congress.

-Actually, I think George Wallace, the arch-Dixiecrat himself, would run as the American Independent candidate again in 1972, even with a conservative like Reagan running. He was open to doing so in OTL 1972, even after being shot, but after McGovern won the nomination, there was no point because the race wasn't going to be close at all. In this 1972, whether it's Reagan beats Humphrey, Humphrey beats Reagan, or some other possibility I haven't thought of, it's going to be a substantially closer race than OTL 1972, so Wallace will still run in hopes that there's no majority in the Electoral College so he can play kingmaker. Even though Reagan will do better in the South than Nixon did in this timeline's 1968, Wallace would still win at least Alabama and Mississippi.

-I'd imagine space exploration is going to be a lot more well-funded in this timeline than in OTL during this period, seeing as we aren't spending that potential money bombing Cambodia. Again, fits perfectly with the tone of this timeline.

-Since Humphrey won anyway in this timeline, even with the chaos at the Chicago convention and the dissatisfaction with the way he got the nomination, is there still a McGovern-Fraser commission or equivalent. Will primaries still beat the convention?

-Does Humphrey go to China?

---

Keep it coming, Brainbin! Good stuff right here!

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Times have changed, haven't they? (Tho how many weddings were show-enders? Not counting one or two that probably should've been, including "Remington Steele".)

Of course, when you know a year ahead of time you're winding things up it's much easier to create a big climax that ends it; and, how many shows have had the chance to know they were going to finish up like that? Seems to me that in itself is more of a recent phenomenon. (Recent meaning from, say, the last episode of M*A*S*H onward) Clearly "The Fugitive" knew, but how many others?

Did "Gunsmoke" have an end? After 20 years they might have knownt hey would. I wonder if an earlier wrap-up type of ending that's popular means that it has one. SAy Marshall Dillon finally retiring after 20 years, which would put it at about the mid-1890s if they argue it was on 20 years (not that it was chronological or that there wasn't a jump at times).

One idea for those calling for James Doohan to do something not Scotty in TTL - he could always play an Allied intelligence officer in a Hogan's Heroes movie so there can be some resolution there, like ending the war.

Or the new marshall of Dodge City We could finally see his hands - I read where they used "stant hands" int he transporters because he had the tip of one finger off or something; that could have come from beings hot at )

Vultan, Humphrey wouldn't have to go to China if your idea about Reagan is accurate. Wait a year, and given his anti-communist stance in OTL, it's easy to see how the saying could become, "Only Reagan could go to china."

But Brainbin has said he's not focusing on politics, so I think we'll just have to speculate on who's doing what. Besides, that give readers more to discuss.

 

[Glen]

Humphrey is likely to win re-election in1972 as I suspect economy okay and out of Vietnam. The moonshot lunacy afterglow is also a benefit. This is a happier 1972 and thus incumbant favored if not overwhelmingly so. Reagan's year will be 1976!

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

I really doubt that Reagan will win in '76.

 

[vultan]

Did "Gunsmoke" have an end? After 20 years they might have knownt hey would. I wonder if an earlier wrap-up type of ending that's popular means that it has one. SAy Marshall Dillon finally retiring after 20 years, which would put it at about the mid-1890s if they argue it was on 20 years (not that it was chronological or that there wasn't a jump at times).

OTL it nearly did in it's twelfth season. However, yes, aside from some mediocre TV movies (which my dad seems to love, but to each his own...), the series proper did end after twenty years.

One idea for those calling for James Doohan to do something not Scotty in TTL - he could always play an Allied intelligence officer in a Hogan's Heroes movie so there can be some resolution there, like ending the war.

Frankly, I'd like to see most or all of the major cast do non-Star Trek related projects and become renowned just as much for them as Trek. IOTL, only Shatner indisputably did, maybe kinda-sorta Nimoy (though Walter Koenig did a great job on his Babylon 5 role). DeForest Kelley has the chops to win an Oscar, IMO, he just needs the right role.

Sadly, I don't know how likely it is, because with Trek even more successful, it's possible the actors are even more typecast. Then again, maybe Brainbin will surprise us...

Vultan, Humphrey wouldn't have to go to China if your idea about Reagan is accurate. Wait a year, and given his anti-communist stance in OTL, it's easy to see how the saying could become, "Only Reagan could go to china."

A possibility, though I'm inclined to believe that Reagan's more... simplistic view of the world than Nixon would make him less likely to do so. Then again, I could be wrong. Nixon didn't seem like he would.

But Brainbin has said he's not focusing on politics, so I think we'll just have to speculate on who's doing what. Besides, that give readers more to discuss.

He certainly has, and I think it's great he's made a timeline devoted to popular culture.
And it does open room for discussion, doesn't it?

 

[vultan]

Humphrey is likely to win re-election in1972 as I suspect economy okay and out of Vietnam. The moonshot lunacy afterglow is also a benefit. This is a happier 1972 and thus incumbant favored if not overwhelmingly so. Reagan's year will be 1976!

'Tis a possibility...

 

[phx1138]

Of course, when you know a year ahead of time you're winding things up it's much easier to create a big climax that ends it; and, how many shows have had the chance to know they were going to finish up like that? Seems to me that in itself is more of a recent phenomenon. (Recent meaning from, say, the last episode of M*A*S*H onward) Clearly "The Fugitive" knew, but how many others?

Entirely right. To my knowledge, very few shows know they're going to get cancelled. Some even at the very last minute don't know.

I do sometimes think shows should write a conclusion story at the very start, so they can shoot it when they get word they're cancelled. (Then again, some I've read about didn't get word even a week in advance...) Back in the '60s & '70s, the pressure for instant success seemed less; networks would buy 13, at least. Now? Cancellations with 4 or 5 aired are common. ("Turn-On" was aberrent regardless.)

I won't suggest a rewrite, but I had a thought how "TOS" could have ended: Kirk violates the Prime Directive one time too many & gets busted out of Starfleet. ("Movie? What movie?") Yes, I have wanted to see him actually face some kind of penalty. More in the abeyance than the observance, indeed.

Did "Gunsmoke" have an end? After 20 years they might have knownt hey would.

I'm unaware of a "wrap" episode.

I wonder if an earlier wrap-up type of ending that's popular means that it has one. SAy Marshall Dillon finally retiring after 20 years, which would put it at about the mid-1890s if they argue it was on 20 years (not that it was chronological or that there wasn't a jump at times).

There's something else, tho. Shows today frequently have ongoing subplots that want tying up, where '60s & '70s episodic TV didn't. "Gunsmoke" really didn't need it. (The Thing about Miss Kitty can safely be ignored, unless you want to scandalize the audience by having Dillon flat say he's never going to marry a prostitue. Or by saying, "Frankly, I don't give a damn, come away with me"--in the Wyatt Earp mold. {Make no mistake, she was a prostitute or madam...})

One idea for those calling for James Doohan to do something not Scotty in TTL - he could always play an Allied intelligence officer in a Hogan's Heroes movie so there can be some resolution there, like ending the war.

Hmm... You could offer him the role of a senior Nazi. Burkhalter's boss?

I did have another thought, tho it requires a few changes to people's thinking. First, recall "Rooster Cogburn". Can you feature Doohan as Cogburn? (No, I don't mean cast him in it. That would wipe out my fave role for The Duke.) Now, recall how young Clint was in '71. Then picture Jimmy as Harry Callahan. (IMO, Harry should've been quite a bit older & more weatherbeaten.) Add to that, after his experience on "ST", Jimmy'd be deeply leery of being typecast again, so even if (especially if!) "Dirty Harry" was successful, he'd refuse a sequel, so when Harry throws away his badge, it sticks.

Vultan, Humphrey wouldn't have to go to China if your idea about Reagan is accurate. Wait a year, and given his anti-communist stance in OTL, it's easy to see how the saying could become, "Only Reagan could go to china."

I do wonder if the butterflies don't mean Reagan never enters presidential politics at all. My reading suggests he only got in the CA Governor's race as an anti-Nixon move. That would appear unlikely TTL. What would Reagan do, instead? Producer? California's answer to Ted Turner?

 

[DTF955Baseballfan]

Hmm... You could offer him the role of a senior Nazi. Burkhalter's boss?

3 of the 4 main German characters were played by Jews - and Robert Clary was in a concentration camp - so he might be able to be convinced. However, if at first he doesn't want to do it since he fought in WW 2, they can always have him as the superspy Nimrod who keeps ordering Burkhalter to send people to Stalag 13 (Mentioned in one episode, speculation has ranged among a few people, but it could be that Klink, Burkhalter, or even Hochstetter was actually an Allied agent. The look on Hogan's face when he found out with any of them would be priceless.)

Then again, if Doohan's a superspy, he might not be typecast as an engineer anymore, buut the miracle worker designation might still be there.

 

[Glen]

I believe Reagan already Governor of California before POD as he was inaugurated inearly January of 1967. IOTL he ran aqgainst an incumbant Republican President Ford in 1976. He wil run ITTL too.

 

[vultan]

I believe Reagan already Governor of California before POD as he was inaugurated inearly January of 1967. IOTL he ran aqgainst an incumbant Republican President Ford in 1976. He wil run ITTL too.

Another probable contender in the GOP primaries in 1972 would be Nelson Rockefeller, but I doubt he'd make it.

 

[Glen]

I really doubt that Reagan will win in '76.

The Republican nomination or the Presidency? Why do you doubt?

 

[Glen]

I know that the focus of this thread is on popular culture, but with the changing of who wins the presidency in 1968, it really has no choice but to deal with politics. Now, you could push it to conform to OTL, make the political side of things at least convergent, but it might be better if you do some changes at least further in the political realm. Don't worry, we'll help you.

 

[vultan]

I know that the focus of this thread is on popular culture, but with the changing of who wins the presidency in 1968, it really has no choice but to deal with politics. Now, you could push it to conform to OTL, make the political side of things at least convergent, but it might be better if you do some changes at least further in the political realm. Don't worry, we'll help you.

Yes indeed, you have no shortage of people on this site who'd be happy to help here.