La Transizione Imperfetta - Italy 20 years after fascism
- Thread starter PolishMagnet
- Start date
They did, and they did.
I didn't have Austria in my original story plans, but I'll try to include them later on.
I really like this timeline so far; just one thing: did Greece get involved in TTL WW2 or not? Maybe not directly but allowing Allied troops to march through to occupy Yugoslavia before the Soviets? Also, did Bulgaria stay neutral or did it fall to the Soviets in 1944/1945 like in OTL?
Greece remained neutral. Perhaps they gave port access to the Allies during the invasion of Yugoslavia, but I haven't considered it.
Bulgaria was an Italian ally ITTL, mainly due to Yugoslavia becoming an ally of the Nazis. Bulgaria got its piece of Yugoslavia and remained as it was. I envisioned Bulgaria as going through 60s-70s period similar to France, where the rigid society gradually opens up as the new generation grows up.
One last thing if I may: was Serbia occupied by the Soviets and remained as a communist puppet state in TTL Warsaw Pact or was it a neutral state?
I read about how Mussolini initially opposed antisemitism until his alliance with Hitler forced him to ditch that. Does Italy serve as a haven for Jews during this time?
I suspect it would be the same as other minorities in fascist Italy - embrace Italian culture and you'll fit in just fine.
Jews in Italy have a pretty unique history, up until 1938.
While the population (who are somewhat distinct from both sephardim and Ashkenazim although technically they're the original Ashkenazim) had varying experiences under the different small Italian states, some were quite positive. Italy had always had a significant is small Jewish presence after the Romans fell in the West, and Venice was a center of Jewish printing iirc.
During Italian unification, Jews were essentially universally emphatic backers of unification, indeed, if it wasn't for financial support from a wealthy Italian Jewish friend of Mazzini, who donated her inheritance, there may not have been any redshirts or a march of the thousand. Italy had two Jewish prime ministers before WWI, one from the left and one from the right. When the Fascist movement came to power it, likewise was fairly popular with Italian Jewry, I don't know the exact numbers, if they're available, but every source I've read online states that the regime was disproportionately popular. Granted, of course, the regime itself was generally pretty popular before the war, it was hardly propped up by the small Jewish community. Mussolini even said "Italy knows no antisemitism and we believe that it will never know it." Mussolini, up until 1938, hosted the Betar Naval Academy, tied to the Revisionist Zionist movement. A lot of Israel's early naval staff came from there. Italy, from unification to 1938 had one of the best records on Jews for a European country. Then, of course, Mussolini stabbed the Jews of Italy in the back, and I use that phrasing advisedly. Racial discrimination laws followed by deportation to German labor or death camps were passed to appease Hitler, and the rest is history.
In this timeline, where Italy is hostile to Germany I could easily see Mussolini taking Jewish refugees to settle in Libya. Mussolini, believe it or not, was an open Zionist. That this furthered his geopolitics in the Middle East, and his objective of weakening the British Empire should be emphasized. Considering that, and the racial laws, it's hard to say if any of it was genuine, or just geopolitical maneuvering and realpolitik, not that Mussolini was good at it.
Doesn't Balbo come to power in this TL? He criticized the Racial Laws and was outspoken against the alliance with Hitler. In Libya his record is mixed, but where Jews had problems it was because he was a Fascist and not an anti-semite.
I don't remember if Israel has been mentioned yet. In 1948 it definitely would have gotten Italian support if the character of the regime doesn't change, indeed, the Irgun and Lehi would probably have been outright supported (clandestinely) by Italy. Come 1948 the Italians will be happy to give guns and surplus war material to the Israelis, since Arab nationalism is a direct threat to Libya especially, and as a way to mess with Britain. Imagine the Israeli-French relationship, but if it had started in the '30s and never had any low-points. Ben-Gurion probably doesn't like the Fascists, but all things considered, he'd take what help he could get to avoid the potential genocide awaiting them in the case of an Arab victory. Instead of Czechoslovak junk in the Avia S.199 (A plane which was nigh uncontrollable on takeoff and had a tendency to shoot its own propellers off), the IDF is going to get shiny Fiat. G55s or G56s, which is funny because IOTL the Syrians and Egyptians used them, although idk what engines the Italians would be using since they probably can't source Daimler Benz. The Israelis probably do significantly better in 1948, unless the British support the Arabs even more than they did IOTL, which would be unpopular in the US, and maybe draw in more Italian intervention. There are also scores of potential Italian Mickey Marcuses, since Jews in the army had an insane ratio of officers, according to what I found for WWI on Wikipedia (I just wrapped up my finals yesterday forgive me for not doing real research) about half of Italian Jewish soldiers during WWI were officers. Although, if I were Ben-Gurion, I'd aim to recruit Marcus before any Fascists, for obvious PR reasons. Honestly the implications for Israeli history for this TL are massive.
While the population (who are somewhat distinct from both sephardim and Ashkenazim although technically they're the original Ashkenazim) had varying experiences under the different small Italian states, some were quite positive. Italy had always had a significant is small Jewish presence after the Romans fell in the West, and Venice was a center of Jewish printing iirc.
During Italian unification, Jews were essentially universally emphatic backers of unification, indeed, if it wasn't for financial support from a wealthy Italian Jewish friend of Mazzini, who donated her inheritance, there may not have been any redshirts or a march of the thousand. Italy had two Jewish prime ministers before WWI, one from the left and one from the right. When the Fascist movement came to power it, likewise was fairly popular with Italian Jewry, I don't know the exact numbers, if they're available, but every source I've read online states that the regime was disproportionately popular. Granted, of course, the regime itself was generally pretty popular before the war, it was hardly propped up by the small Jewish community. Mussolini even said "Italy knows no antisemitism and we believe that it will never know it." Mussolini, up until 1938, hosted the Betar Naval Academy, tied to the Revisionist Zionist movement. A lot of Israel's early naval staff came from there. Italy, from unification to 1938 had one of the best records on Jews for a European country. Then, of course, Mussolini stabbed the Jews of Italy in the back, and I use that phrasing advisedly. Racial discrimination laws followed by deportation to German labor or death camps were passed to appease Hitler, and the rest is history.
In this timeline, where Italy is hostile to Germany I could easily see Mussolini taking Jewish refugees to settle in Libya. Mussolini, believe it or not, was an open Zionist. That this furthered his geopolitics in the Middle East, and his objective of weakening the British Empire should be emphasized. Considering that, and the racial laws, it's hard to say if any of it was genuine, or just geopolitical maneuvering and realpolitik, not that Mussolini was good at it.
Doesn't Balbo come to power in this TL? He criticized the Racial Laws and was outspoken against the alliance with Hitler. In Libya his record is mixed, but where Jews had problems it was because he was a Fascist and not an anti-semite.
I don't remember if Israel has been mentioned yet. In 1948 it definitely would have gotten Italian support if the character of the regime doesn't change, indeed, the Irgun and Lehi would probably have been outright supported (clandestinely) by Italy. Come 1948 the Italians will be happy to give guns and surplus war material to the Israelis, since Arab nationalism is a direct threat to Libya especially, and as a way to mess with Britain. Imagine the Israeli-French relationship, but if it had started in the '30s and never had any low-points. Ben-Gurion probably doesn't like the Fascists, but all things considered, he'd take what help he could get to avoid the potential genocide awaiting them in the case of an Arab victory. Instead of Czechoslovak junk in the Avia S.199 (A plane which was nigh uncontrollable on takeoff and had a tendency to shoot its own propellers off), the IDF is going to get shiny Fiat. G55s or G56s, which is funny because IOTL the Syrians and Egyptians used them, although idk what engines the Italians would be using since they probably can't source Daimler Benz. The Israelis probably do significantly better in 1948, unless the British support the Arabs even more than they did IOTL, which would be unpopular in the US, and maybe draw in more Italian intervention. There are also scores of potential Italian Mickey Marcuses, since Jews in the army had an insane ratio of officers, according to what I found for WWI on Wikipedia (I just wrapped up my finals yesterday forgive me for not doing real research) about half of Italian Jewish soldiers during WWI were officers. Although, if I were Ben-Gurion, I'd aim to recruit Marcus before any Fascists, for obvious PR reasons. Honestly the implications for Israeli history for this TL are massive.
Yes, Serbia was an ordinary soviet puppet state
Yes, sort of. A lot of them go to Libya and later to Israel after its founding
Yes Balbo was very much in that camp
Yes, he hated that they refused to integrate. Balbo was not a fan of cultural enclaves.
Yes ITTL Italy backs Arabs as they could wreak havoc against France and Britain, but as the war goes on, they slowly abandon it due to Senussi uprisings.
Italy backs Israel and Lehi gets a lot of support from Jews coming from Libya. They admire fascist Italy and if you noticed on the map, there is no Palestine at all (no dotted lines for west bank and gaza, Golan Heights is fully annexed). Israel goes full fascist ITTL for a period.
I would imagine that Begin and the Irgun are the more likely beneficiaries right? There's already a Betar-Italy connection, and the Lehi was always just too extreme for the Yishuv, especially at that time. Where the Irgun was a fairly large underground network, Lehi never matched their size. Plus, if the Irgun is more consistently pro-Italian Lehi is probably more likely to willingly rejoin, or remain a cooky fringe.
Are we going to get to see Israel ittl?
Are we going to get to see Israel ittl?
Interesting notes, thanks! I didn't do a lot of research but I was inspired a bit by Footprint of Mussolini and the whole "Sword of Islam" thing
I was not intending to actually cover Israel in the timeline, just having it as a thing in the background that was a consequence of fascist Italy existing. I might do a chapter on it after the main story is done.
I've made a reference to that in my novel "Il Diavolo Senza Corna". In a chapter Jabotinskij appears.
A New Hope? Slovenia under new leadership
A New Hope? Slovenia under new leadership
View from Celje Castle
In the picturesque landscapes of Slovenia, a country with a tumultuous history, the echoes of the fascist era still resonate. For almost five decades, the specter of authoritarian rule loomed large, overshadowing the dreams of independence and a democratic future. The monarchy, once considered an unwelcome imposition by Italy, became a symbol of struggle against the fascist government, attempting to curb its excesses. King Anton I took the throne in 1946 unwillingly, but slowly warmed up to the country and its people.
Leon “Lev” Rupnik, first dictator of Slovenia
The country finally had its independence, but was quickly shackled to Italy and its Fascist Bloc. Leon Rupnik, general of the Vaške Straže (Village Sentries), became Slovenia’s dictator. Ruling the country with an iron fist, he passed the country to his son, Vuk Rupnik, who in turn passed it to his son Gregorij. Unlike his predecessors, Gregorij was wholly unsympathetic to the monarchy. All concessions which had been given at the behest of the monarchy were rolled back, and the country entered a dark period of strict repression. It was only in 1994, motivated by Montenegro and Italy abandoning fascism, that the liberal wing of the fascist party overthrew Rupnik in the August Coup. Slovenia's transition to a democratic state marked the beginning of a new chapter, characterized by political openness, civil liberties, and a reinvigorated economy.
While Slovenia is considered one of the freest democracies of the former fascist bloc, it still suffers from corruption
However, beneath the successful transition to democracy, Slovenia grappled with the scars of its past. Much like Montenegro and Albania, the country had a quiet trend of deep-rooted corruption that remained from the end of fascism. It was not until 2012, when protests erupted in Celje over the corruption of city mayor Janko Redna. The protests spread to Ljubljana and Maribor, and later to the rest of the country, leading to snap elections that ousted the ruling SDS (Slovene Democratic Party / Slovenska demokratska stranka). The new government, a wide coalition under the name SiLA, promised a thorough breath of fresh air across the country, rooting out corruption everywhere it could find.
Logos of the SDS (left) and SiLA (right)
While the extent of the anti-corruption campaign has been much smaller than many had hoped, the new government under Majda Sepe remains generally popular. In Celje, on the second anniversary of the start of the Celje Protests and the 20th anniversary of the fall of fascism, people on the streets are eager to give their opinions.
For many, the changes are new and welcome, but they are still received with cautious optimism. Anja Kovač, a 32 year-old teacher, says, “It’s good to see the government taking steps against corruption. I don’t know if anything will come of it, but it’s a good start. Let’s hope it continues.”
Others see both sides of the changes. After all, SiLA is a left-wing social democratic alliance. Matej Novak, a 45 year-old phone repair shop owner, says, “I’ve seen change since the protests. Business is smoother, less bureaucracy to worry about, but taxes have gone up.”
Still others see the change as negative; the firmly left-wing stance of the new ruling party, which has taken aim at the monarchy over its anti-democratic nature, has earned it a small amount of backlash. Luka Potočnik, a 38 year-old coffee shop owner, says, “I like SiLA, I like Majda and her new government, but I think they are losing focus. They started talking about the king, and changing wording in the constitution, but why? It’s not important right now.”
The last quote riled up another patron, a younger man by the name of Marko Jovanović. Kavarna Potočnika (Potočnik’s Cafe) is set right off the main square in Celje’s old town, and as such it attracts a wide selection of local conversation. Gone are the old days of more quiet talk avoiding politics, the atmosphere in Slovenia since 2012 is forever changed.
A view from outside Kavarna Potocnika, in Celje's old town
Marko, a 28 year-old IT professional, inserts himself into my conversation with the owner. “I would agree, in general, with Mr. Potočnik’s position. My problem is, especially now when we talk about austerity. The EU is in love with austerity. Here, and there, and everywhere, we need to save our money and be smart about it. So let’s do that,” he says, animated by the chance to talk politics with a foreign journalist.
Luka shakes his head, but Marko continues, “why are we paying 70 million euros for a family that does nothing? It’s not just the king, either, it’s his whole family.” He scoffs and points to himself, “I wish my company paid for my whole family.”
Marko’s position here holds water – the Slovenian monarchy costs the country about 67 million euros per year. As required by law, the royal family of Savoy-Ljubljana is required to announce its official grants and expenditure. The figure is also a generous one, as it does not include what many republicans call the “museum tax” from royally-owned historical sites which the government receives no money from.
Q: Does that mean you are a republican?
M: Well of course, it’s the only sane position here. The real issue is that nobody seems to care. They all just think “that’s how it is” and move on to other things.
Q: Why do you feel more strongly about this, then?
M: For me, it’s about moving into the future. Look at all the successful countries in the EU – France? A republic. Germany? A republic. England is the one exception, and I really don’t think we can compare ourselves to England.
Q: Some people say that the Italian ancestry of the monarchy is another reason to abandon it. Would you agree?
M: Who cares? If I did, I would probably agree with you, but it’s really not the issue here. Honestly, I think a bigger issue is when people bring up the fascist era. Some older folks love to talk about how “the king stopped them from doing this” or “the king said this during the fascist era, how brave” as if he could have actually done something. Please. They could have shot him at any point, so he played along.
Q: What is your impression of the new government, then? Do you think they will bring real change?
M: I think it’s like everything – it will change slowly. There was a big breakthrough with the protests, then they came to power and changed some things, and slowly now they’ll become corrupt themselves. Maybe in 2023 we’ll have another round of protests, and maybe then we’ll have enough decent change.
Austrians vote to legalise gay marriage
Austrians vote to legalise gay marriage
In a turn not expected by most analysts, 61.2% of Austrians voted in favour of expanding marriage to include gay and lesbian couples. Austria is the first country in the world to legalise same-sex marriage through popular vote.
The decision was welcomed by Prime Minister Peter Seidl, whose Progressive Party campaigned in favour of the “yes” vote, and quietly accepted by the opposition Future Alliance party. It marks another massive change in Austrian society since the end of fascism in 1994.
Logo of the Austrian Progressive Party, which came to power in 2006 after the reigning Social Democratic party was ousted.
While Austria historically had a deep connection between the state and the Catholic Church, under the fascist regime of Karl Schuschnigg, these ties were deepened. Austrian national identity was tied to Catholicism to further differentiate it from Germany, and the church enjoyed unchecked influence. Any potential controversies were covered up, and individuals who suffered abuses were silenced. That was until 1994.
Fascist Austria's border fences, on the border with Germany and recently democratic Hungary, were symbolically cut and dismantled in 1994 after the government agreed to hold democratic elections
As Austria grappled with its past, discussions around freedom and individual rights came to the fore, and gay rights were no different. Advocacy groups and activists, buoyed by the spirit of democracy, played a pivotal role in challenging the traditionalist views propagated during the fascist era. The legalisation of civil unions in 2010 was a significant milestone, setting the stage for the 2014 referendum.
Similar to countries like Ireland and Italy, gay rights advocates in Austria faced strong opposition from conservative factions, especially those rooted in the historical alliance between the state and the Catholic Church. The Church, once a powerful force in shaping public opinion, found itself at odds with the changing social landscape. Tied to the legacy of fascism and its brutal repression, church attendance steadily dropped. Controversies emerged as traditionalists sought to resist the evolving norms of equality and acceptance.
Results map of the referendum
On the streets of Vienna, I asked some locals for their thoughts on the referendum. Among them were Ernst and Friedrich, two retired pensioners who held opposing views on the matter. Ernst spoke first, eager to share his thoughts on politics,
“Back then, life was different. Sure we didn’t have so much choice in the stores, but there was a sense of stability. You didn’t have to worry about your company going under, or whether you could find a house, and you didn’t have to go do all this voting. For what? Are they making things better?” He left the question open, but shook his head to answer for us. His friend Friedrich shook his head, this time in disagreement.
“Maybe there was a sense of stability, but it was just hiding problems we weren’t allowed to see,” He wagged his finger as if giving a lecture, first to me and after to Ernst. “Change is uncomfortable, but it’s important. This referendum doesn't affect me, but it’s a sign that more is changing, that the country is opening up. No more hiding. If there are problems in our country, we need to know all the facts and work together to fix them.”
Ernst waved his hands dismissively, then crossed his arms.
“I’m not saying we can’t change anything, but this referendum business is sacrificing our traditional values. Twenty years ago, thirty years ago, when we had questions like this, we looked at the Bible. The church is there for you.”
Friedrich scoffed and, using a newspaper he’d had rolled up under his arm, wagged again at Ernst. Perhaps he thought the added instrument would give more strength than just a finger.
“The church! The church was there for us with all those shameful things they did. We both read the paper, and I know you’ve seen all the reports. Lord knows if we’ll uncover everything they hid.”
Austria stands at a crossroads, a juncture where the echoes of the past mingle with the aspirations of the present. The recent referendum serves as a beacon of change, illuminating a path towards openness and resilience. As the nation navigates this delicate dance between tradition and transformation, it does so with the echoes of history and the anticipation of a future shaped by both nostalgia and progress. The dialogue continues, etching the narrative of Austria's journey in the evolving chapters of time.
---
Note: I didn't originally plan to cover Austria, somehow forgetting it was part of Italy's fascist bloc... in any case, I hope this chapter was interesting enough, and not too short.
How did this fascist Austria (the one under Italian influence) view Hitler?
As a twisted interperator of fascism and a fanatic German nationalist. ITTL Austria was restored completely by Italy, and so austrofascist identity was really hammered in. Hitler is remembered as the brutal invader, not as another fascist. After the war, Schuschnigg (dictator of Austria) doubled down on the "Austrian =/= German" thing, overemphasising Catholicism and giving the church a lot of control, as well as influence in the government.
[This is why I went the angle I did with the modern Austrian relationship with Catholicism - I think it would mirror the situation in Ireland and Canada (with residential schools). The church being so strong and un-assailable would mean, in my opinion, its complicity in any violence would drag it down much further. In post-fascist Austria, any and all controversy led to massive backlash, secularisation, and liberalisation of society.]
Did this fascist Austria try to make claims to Catholic parts of southern Germany?
What terrifies me is knowing what a Mussolini Italy with the support of the US could do in the Middle East. Knowing Mussolini's support for Zionism before his alliance with Hitler, he would absolutely push for the total expulsion of all Palestinians from the land. This means a much worse Nakba which has massive implications for the region especially with even more refugees in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan as well as Egypt getting its share of them. Israel with Italian backing will definitely be able to seize all of Palestine with not even an inkling's chance for an independent Palestinian state in the area. If I were Ben-Gurion or any left-Zionist leader I'd be very terrified about the implications of literal fascist support for Israel. Fascism can easily be appealing to Israelis there.
And knowing that Mussolini will definitely support the Catholic Church, I can also see him talking the Maronite side of an alternate Lebanese Civil War with its own disastrous consequences. Can definitely see Italy propping up a ethnonationalist Maronite state in Lebanon with all other non-Maronites being forced out. And this is definitely crack territory, but maybe he can even support a Coptic ethnonationalist state in Egypt too. Not only can this mean Italy will support Christian fundamentalist movements in the Middle East similar to OTL Iran and Saudi Arabia supporting Islamic fundamentalist movements, but this can also mean that Islamism will be even stronger and more appealing. Desperate Assyrians may look to Italy for support which will make the Arab-Kurdish conflict even more chaotic. I feel sorry for the Arab Christians in this TL, being trapped between a Western colonial power backing several fascist entities and literal Salafists. Arabs are definitely not selling oil or gas to Italy in this TL for sure.
Not exactly sure what side Armenians would take though. But if Mussolini speaks out against Turkey, oof. But an anti-Turkey Italy will definitely support Greece against Turkey which means a way nastier war in Cyprus.
EDIT: Also realized that Mussolini will support the Pied-Noirs in the Algerian War and if France pulls out Italy will definitely try to fill in the void. So Algeria is screwed as well, with an apartheid-style state ruling over the place. As I mentioned before this TL will be even worse for Arabs. But then again you (PolishMagnet) said Algeria will be independence so maybe my point is moot.
EDIT 2: I could see Mussolini allowing Arab Christians to stay in Palestine and Lebanon even when he supports the creation of Zionist and Maronite ethnostates only because he's Christian and would like them around. Though them being opponents of Western-backed colonialism is going to give Mussolini a reality check and he might as well try to label them "Arameans" in try to "de-Arabize" them instead. That would have some nasty consequences too.
I read that the Alawites nearly got their own state in what's now Syria but never obtained it. Mussolini might try that if Syria goes through internal chaos and he wants to create another friendly fascist state on the Mediterranean. Also I thought about Mussolini going farther and even supporting an independent Druze state. But at this point it feels like crack territory and talking about genocide is depressing so I'd rather not go further.
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Ah, I've missed this TL. Very nice! I do so love the interview format you've gone with.
I can't wait to see what you have in store next!
I can't wait to see what you have in store next!