Why are Sealion threads so hated on this site?
- Thread starter IntellectuallyHonestRhino
- Start date
Well, since Germany was more mobilised for war in 1940 than Britain was in 1945 (according to Tooze), it's not that far from the truth.
Wilhelm le Batard brought his cavalry horses across the same water landing them on an open beach in oversized rowing boats. However even he had to wait weeks for the weather planets to all align perfectly. However his logistics needs were met by local resources. He even managed to bring a flat pack castle with him.
He knew what he was doing he wasn't some loony drunk on his own self importance, with his ego boosted by easy early success.
RodentRevolution
Banned
Well in 1945 Britain was winding down some of its war industries and switching over to civilian production again as it was preparing for peace, so too the USA.
Many factories were laying off before the war in Europe was won. My step grandfather had been working for MetroVick since 1939 on various battery operated projects and was told he would be finished by the end of May but then told he was staying. In the end he stayed till he retired in the 60s.
Garrison
Donor
That mobilization figure is fairly meaningless. Germany had no choice but to achieve much higher levels of mobilization than the UK since it only had its own industrial base to draw up until after the conquest of Western Europe, and the industrial output of the occupied countries for the German war effort was disappointing to say the least. The UK had the Empire and the USA to draw on and by 1945 they were indirectly benefiting from the war production of the USSR as well, which was absorbing the bulk of what fighting power the Wehrmacht could deploy.
A better comparison is the output of German war industries in 1940 versus those of 1942-43. Looking at those it is clear that in 1940 Germany was certainly not 'a fully industrialized total war machine'. In 1940 It’s Panzer divisions depended on training vehicles and captured Czech tanks, its supply system depended on the horse and cart, and the infantry either walked or travelled on a train network that was crumbling from overwork and lack of investment, so yes the ‘total war machine’ is a myth.
In 1940 Germany was outproduced by Britain in every category other than small arms.
Ian_W
Banned
I've got to defend Mussolini here.
He was absolutely fucking great on the issue of saving who he could from the Holocaust, and thats good enough for me.
Terrible war leader, but a good enough man for me.
SsgtC
Banned
He ordered the use of mustard gas in Ethiopia. That classifies him as a bastard no matter what else he did.
Only since undertaking sealion ends in failure you still get the same results only you weaken yourself, and strengthen your enemy first. And this is the problem with your point here, it only works if you think Sealion can work, and since sealion can't work, neither does you point. It doesn't work either in isolation about the risk/reward analysis of sealion, and it doesn't work in comparison to the same analysis for Barbarossa.
No the advantage is: not doing Barbarossa,
which is not the same thing as doing sealion
What's the quote, "dangerous at both ends and tricky in the middle"
Apparently famously good at the details.
Can't help but think he'd have done a better job of that by not allying with Hitler in the first place. Or given his actions in North Africa his death toll was probably lowered more by incompetence than love of his fellow man.
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A lot of the relative good luck of the Italian Jews (at least before the Germans took over the country) was on a more local level. Sure there was antisemitism but it was the old fashioned religious sort, not the highly racialized German version (with few exceptions). When roundups were going to happen, many local authorities would let the word get out that "next Tuesday we are going to be out looking for the Jews", and the local Jews got the hint. I have heard first hand stories of how sometimes when the local police went to a Jews apartment they'd announce themselves and knock and when nobody answered the door (the inhabitants were inside) they would then loudly state, "well nobody is home" and walk away. I also wonder if Mussolini was reticent in handing over Italian Jews, but not so much immigrant Jews. BTW in the 30s the Italians did pass a bunch of new antisemitic laws restricting Jews in university, various professions, civil service etc.
Interestingly while most fascist countries/German allies were perfectly OK with a lot of anti-Jewish laws and restrictions, they were quite reticent about turning over Jews who were citizens to the Germans. Those who were not native born or long time residents were in a more chancy situation. Bad things, slave labor, excess deaths happened but the extermination program was not done locally. One of the most cooperative countries in handing over Jews was not an ally but France, where while it started with immigrant Jews the Vichy government was active in rounding up and deporting French Jews (those born in France) who then went to death camps.
Interestingly while most fascist countries/German allies were perfectly OK with a lot of anti-Jewish laws and restrictions, they were quite reticent about turning over Jews who were citizens to the Germans. Those who were not native born or long time residents were in a more chancy situation. Bad things, slave labor, excess deaths happened but the extermination program was not done locally. One of the most cooperative countries in handing over Jews was not an ally but France, where while it started with immigrant Jews the Vichy government was active in rounding up and deporting French Jews (those born in France) who then went to death camps.
He was a generic authoritarian strongman instead of a genocidal megalomaniac
What about the intention to establish an Italian majority in Italian Libya?
I'd probably add submarines to that, but it's more to do with British industry being more efficient, rather than the British economy being more mobilised for war.
In 1940, for example, the Germans had about 1 million people in the aircraft industry, produced 10,247 planes and 15,510 aero engines. The British aircraft industry, by contrast, had 973,000 employees, and produced 15,049 planes and 24,047 aero engines.
In 1941 the figures had increased to 1,850,000 employees in Germany producing 11,776 aircraft, incorporating 68 million pounds of airframe weight and 22,400 engines, while in the UK 1,259,400 workers produced 20,094 aircraft, 87 million pounds of airframe weight and 36,551 engines. (figures from Overy, The Air War).