TL-191: Filling the Gaps

So i was trying too rewrite the article I did on the C.S. Army SGW. I was writing about C.S. and french cooperation in aircraft design and training when it hit me. Do we think that Germany imposed exactly the same restrictions on France that the U.S. did on the C.S. I ask this because France still had a substantial colonial empire at the end of the Great War. The Confederacy did not. Specifically, do we think the Germans imposed a complete prohibition upon barrels, machine-guns, artillery, submersibles, and poison gas.

We know they lost Indochina to the Japanese in the twenties and probably the French Congo, which would have united German Kameroon with the Germany's newly required territory in the Congo. That still leaves a substantial empire in Africa. Could the French expect to hold these territories without artillery, aircraft or an Army of no more than a 100,000 infantrymen?

The Germans probably allowed the French to keep a limited force of artillery, armored cars and aircraft. However none this would probably have been allowed to have been deployed on the metropole. So no more than 200 guns and 100 aircraft for observation or aerial bombardment. No Strategic bombers, tactical bombers or aircraft intercepting German aircraft. Considering the racial attitudes of the German's at the time, the French probably disguised their re-armament under a need to put down a rebellion in North or Western Africa. The Germans could have allowed this to go on if they feared the revolt might spill over into their territories. This allowed the French to expand their limited numbers of artillery pieces, aircraft and produce some barrels, disguised as armored cars. The French could play this as needing to put down the revolt in their colonies in order to prevent a new economic collapse, which would endanger the German economic recovery.
Did the Germans ever recover at least some of their Pacific possessions?
 
So i was trying too rewrite the article I did on the C.S. Army SGW. I was writing about C.S. and french cooperation in aircraft design and training when it hit me. Do we think that Germany imposed exactly the same restrictions on France that the U.S. did on the C.S. I ask this because France still had a substantial colonial empire at the end of the Great War. The Confederacy did not. Specifically, do we think the Germans imposed a complete prohibition upon barrels, machine-guns, artillery, submersibles, and poison gas.

We know they lost Indochina to the Japanese in the twenties and probably the French Congo, which would have united German Kameroon with the Germany's newly required territory in the Congo. That still leaves a substantial empire in Africa. Could the French expect to hold these territories without artillery, aircraft or an Army of more than a 100,000 infantrymen?

The Germans probably allowed the French to keep a limited force of artillery, armored cars and aircraft. However none this would probably have been allowed to have been deployed on the metropole. So no more than 50,000 men stationed in France with none of the prohibited weapons deployed there as well. Only 300K men or either french man or colonial auxiliaries, 200 guns and 100 aircraft for observation or aerial bombardment. No strategic bombers, tactical bombers or high speed interceptor aircraft.

Considering the racial attitudes of the German's at the time, the French probably disguised their re-armament under a need to put down a rebellion in North or Western Africa. The Germans could have allowed this to go on if they feared the revolt might spill over into their territories. This would allow the French to expand their limited numbers of artillery pieces, aircraft and produce some barrels, disguised as armored cars.

The say at first they need to expand their military to put down colonial revolts or their economy will collapse and take the rest of Europe with it, which the German's agree to. I have the German's under the Socialists Wels and Centrist burning government following a policy of appeasement in the 1930s, because they think war will lead to either Red revolution or the collapse of post war German Democratic reforms. Under this cover they slowly rebuild then by 1938 and the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War they begin deploying these forces on the continent. They have already reached airpower parity with the Germans and the Germans do not feel ready to risk a war. Of course they get substantial help from the British, who are not bound by any Post Great War arms limitations.

French Re-armament in a nutshell.
 
I think we had debated this earlier in the thread and the answer was no. They can't take them back from the Japanese or Australians who took them. They don't worry about it considering how much territory they have taken.
 
I think we had debated this earlier in the thread and the answer was no. They can't take them back from the Japanese or Australians who took them. They don't worry about it considering how much territory they have taken.
Yeah I asked because I recalled a snippet of After The End which recalled the immediate events preceding the fourth pacific war in which the US and Germany issued a joint declaration stating that an attack on Germany's pacific possessions would invite retaliation by both powers. I thought after that that maybe sometime after the Great War Germany purchased her possessions back from Japan or something like that.
 
Yeah I'm gonna disregard Germany ever reclaiming her pacific possessions, but a separate thread from after the end doesn't matter as you're giving the full details on what happened during the books. What happened after the series ended is up to our own individual imaginations.
 
Yeah. We have a few things that go over the end of the books. The rule of the thread has been everything is fine as long as you don't contradict the books, a prior post or go alien space bats on us. Like having a bunch of house spice addicted lizards invade.
 
Hey guys. So I'm still working on my Abner Dowling contribution, but wanted to knock out something that I'd been thinking of for a while. So I'm going to do something short on U.S. Army Group East; the force that captured Richmond in 1944. I should have it done by the end of the weekend, but here is a sampling:


U.S. Army Group East:

Years of Service: 1944

Commanders:

-General Daniel MacArthur (de jure)

-General Abner Dowling (de facto; served as commander of 5th Army)

Strength: 460,000 (at height)

Composition: 5th Army, 7th Army, 10th Army

Casualties: 27,000 (KIA); 53,000 (WIA)

Campaigns:

Wilderness (1944), North Anna, Richmond, Tidewater

I see you have Dowling as de facto commander of 5th Army. I wrote a post on 5th Army early this year. I have East Group comprising Fifth and Ninth Army in 1941. Sometime in 1942 7th Army is created out of a Corp of 5th Army and those divisions guarding West Virginia. Seventh Army is transferred to PA during Coalscuttle but after the retreat of the CS Army south of the Ohio, I have it brought back East. I have 5th Army commanded by the very competent Walter Kreuger. Dowling is in command of Seventh Army by the end. Krueger is the real architect of the victory in 1944, finally able to re-organize the Army like Morrell had. Dowling's Seventh is the big right hook that out flanks Richmond and forces Featherston's government to retreat. Tom Ricks wrote an interesting book about U.S. Generals in it he explained how the big difference between the Army of WW2 and the Modern Army was the willingness of George C Marshal to fire people who failed. They were then given second chances in other theaters. I like the idea of this and have it as McNairs approach to leadership as well. This is why Eichelburger and Dowling, get so many bites at the apple.

Fifth Army in the SGW
Hugh Drum (1939-1940)
Daniel MacArthur (1941)
Robert L Eichelberger (1941)
Walter Krueger (1942)

One of the original six Armies to be reconstituted in 1940 under Chief of Staff Sturgiss’ rearmament plan. Fifth Army was given the same area of operation as it had in the First Great War, but now it would be doing so on former Virginian territory. Headquartered in Culpeper West Virginia it was initially under the Command of Hugh Drum. Initially it was given priority in resources and equipment fearing the rearmed Confederacy might attempt a third attack on Philadelphia. Drum successfully managed the build up of first Army and the defenses along the Rappahannock. While most other field armies were under strength at the outbreak of war, Fifth Army had Eleven Divisions two more than the next largest field Army. Not wanting to be caught off guard as it had in 1914, the General Staff ordered Fifth Army to stand on the defensive in June of 1941. The General Staff still believed that the invasion of Ohio was only a feint and as late as July 23rd, a month into the Ohio invasion. It was only then that reinforcements mobilizing and being sent for the east were directed westward. These reinforcements proved to no avail.

In the late summer of 1941 General Daniel MacArthur was put forward by the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War to lead the attack on Virginia. MacArthur’s plan was to attack several heavily-fortified Confederate positions along several river lines, hoping the Confederates would be overstretched by their invasion of Ohio. Despite its pretension to ensure the war was led to a swift conclusion, the Committee approved Mac Arthur’s suicidal plan. MacArthur was confident about his chances against the Confederates, taking no account of their tenacity and will to win into his plans. He instead assumed that US soldiers would be marching into Richmond on a very short basis. This hubris was to cost the USA dearly as the offensive opened in late October after several delays.

Fall of 1941 Offensive
MacArthur launched his attack over the Rappahannock to the west of Fredericksburg. Entrenched Confederate guns and barrels cost his force several thousand casualties, but by nightfall the USA had a bridgehead on the south bank. The Americans battled their way across trench systems toward the Rapidan, where they were stopped by a fierce defense. After several days of further attacking, a US force crossed the Rapidan River and established a bridgehead in a tangle of terrain and forest called the Wilderness. In their drive to the south, the US Army had exposed their right flank as it brushed against the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. First Corps, under the command of Abner Dowling, was the unit in charge of watching the flank. Dowling made sure to watch the mountains for any sign, but MacArthur's orders were to advance south. Under Featherston's order, General George Patton struck First Corps in a lightning counterattack and pushed the USA back several miles. Although Dowling recovered the situation and held off Patton from reaching the USA's rear, MacArthur was forced to call off the attack through the Wilderness, which was holding up the US bridgehead there.

While both sides of the line settled down for winter quarters, their respective high commands made plans for renewed assaults in the spring. With reinforcement flowing into the region Fifth Army swelled in size, now at an un wieldy seventeen divisions, with a responsibility for defense of most of the Western Virginia border. The War Department prepared to break the Army up into the Seventh and Fifth Army. Wanting to keep operational control all forces in the Mid-Atlantic Theater, MacArthur proposed the creation of Army groups with theater commanders. The lack of theater commanders and fighting between army commanders had been an issue of the Great War. MacArthur was made the first theater commander of the Virginia Theater. Fifth Army was officially split into Fifth and Seventh Army in January 1941. Fifth Army now commanded by Robert L Eichelberger and Seventh Army commanded by John P. Lucas. With Seventh Army now responsible for Western Sector of the front, Fifth Army moved their attention eastward.

Battle of Fredericksburg
In early 1942 the Confederate General Staff quietly began removing veteran units away from Northern Virginia and sending them northwest to Ohio for the renewal of their assault. General MacArthur also spent his winter making plans. Initially, he wanted to land a force on the Virginia Peninsula and march on Richmond from the east, ala George McClellan in 1862, even securing support from the US Navy's Rear Admiral William Halsey, Commander of the Chesapeake Squadron. The US General Staff, informed by Dowling that MacArthur had attempted to take a division from Dowling's First Corps to go into the landing force, quietly ordered him to scuttle the plan. MacArthur began his revised attack by sending in engineers to build pontoon bridges across the Rappahannock under artillery fire. Unlike Custer’s successful bridging of the Tennessee River in 1917, MacArthur failed to include any element of surprise. The engineers were slaughtered, as were several regiments of soldiers waiting to cross from the far bank. After a lull in the fighting, during which reinforcements were brought forward on both sides of the river, the USA attacked again, this time managing to secure a bridgehead inside Fredericksburg. Once the US force began advancing south, Confederate guns opened up again and pinned the force down, creating thousands of casualties. Several days later, MacArthur ordered the remaining troops to fall back across the river, never having advanced outside the town itself toward Marye's Heights.

MacArthur and several US officers were criticized in the press and before the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War. MacArthur chose to throw Fifth Army commander Eichelberger to the Joint Committee, relieving him of command in the summer of 1942. MacArthur chose to replace him Walter Kreuger, a surprising choice since Krueger was largely known for his intellectual prowess over combat experience. Kreuger had been one of the leading Army military theorists, staff officers and proponents of Barrel warfare. Many believed he would have been a likely replacement for Chief of Staff McNair, had President Smith not have been killed. Chief of Staff McNair happily approved a command that took Kreuger out of Philadelphia. With all resources being devoted to halting the Confederate advance into Western Pennsylvania. Krueger immediately halted the wasteful fifth Army attacks in and around Fredericksburg, and moved to reorganize the force built around a combined infantry-barrel-artillery and airpower centric warfare. Kreuger saw Fifth Army’s mission as to keep pressure on the Army of Northern Virginia, which would prevent the Confederates from sending more forces further west. Fifth Army continued to make limited advances into the area marked as the wilderness. For the rest of 1942 and the first half of 1943 nearly all of the nations resources were poured into driving the Confederates out of Pennsylvania and Ohio and then supporting the invasion of Kentucky and Tennessee. Again Firth Army’s main mission was to give support by renewing operations in Western Virginia in the area around the wilderness.

1944 Offensive
Even while fighting in Georgia and Alabama raged, the USA made plans to resume the war on the Virginia front. General Kreuger is largely aknowledged as the architect of General MacArthur’s Army Group’s drive on Richmond. Under his plan Fifth Army would pin Confederate resources down near Fredericksburg, meanwhile Seventh, Fifth and Ninth Army would capture Richmond and the Army of Northern Virginia in a double envelopment. In February 1944 the offensive opened with a massive artillery barrage near Fredericksburg. While General Eichenburg’s Ninth Army crossed the Rappahannock east of Fredericksburg, scene of so much slaughter in 1942. In the West the Army Air Corp dropped the largest air bombardment in history flattening the area known as the wilderness with the newly invented incendiary weapons, known as napalm. Fifth and Seventh Army pushed south out of its salient in the Wilderness and drove for Spotsylvania. In a few days, the USA had reached the North Anna River line, and pushed the few Confederate defenders aside.

Fifth Army’s relentless drive towards the capitol is largely considered the cause of the failed Forrest Coup in April of 1944. This led to the execution of many of the Confederacy’s ablest Staff Officers, resulting into a continuing deterioration of Confederate command and control capabilities. Several days later, Featherston and his Cabinet fled the capital of the Confederate States, setting up Petersburg to be the temporary seat of government. By May US soldiers battled street by street through Richmond, pushing south across the James River. The city fell not long afterward, and President La Follette toured the captured site a few days later. The USA continued pushing past Richmond, driving east and west, toward Hampton Roads and Appomattox County respectively. Featherston fled Petersburg for Portsmouth, where he ordered the CSA's superbomb to be deployed against Philadelphia. A few days later, after broadcasting a defiant speech filled with lies and hate against the USA, Featherston witnessed the detonation of the USA's superbomb, dropped by aircraft over the city of Newport News. With US forces pushing steadily toward Hampton Roads, the Confederate President evacuated the region and headed for North Carolina.

Fifth Army continued to pursue the remnants of the Confederate Army into North Carolina. Despite MacArthur’s best efforts it would not be Fifth Army or any of Army Group East that accepted the Confederate surrender. That honor would belong to Morrell's Army Group West, Morrell’s Army Group West and Mark Clark's Third Army. Fifth Army would end the War as the occupation Army of North Carolina in the so called Mid-Atlantic Command. In a spate of post war retirement’s General Krueger was spared and returned to his position as the Commandant of the Army War College in Valley Forge Pennsylvania.
 
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President Mahan: my apologies for the confusion. I'll edit the composition of Army Group East. My intent behind making Dowling the de facto Army Group commander was to demonstrate how his army spearheaded the main effort (the capture of Richmond)
 
My article was broad sketches there is still plenty of room to flush out the interplay of the commanders and armies. Outside of Dowling, all the commanders are real people.
 
I bet its pretty harsh. In Tom Colleton's POV in Drive to the East we have Colonel Colleton asking a bartender in Columbus if he feels embarrassed to do "n****r work". I bet there is a lot of those little social clashes. In Craigo's Marshal article he has the Mexican soldiers putting down a revolt of local Pennsylvanians right before Morrel's counter attack.

Then remember the US Soldiers were pretty brutal in their occupation of Houston. At least thats how Featherstone will paint it. I am sure there are a lot of soldiers that want to pay back the US for atrocities that have been all over the CSA newspapers for the last 7 years or so. The US seems to have hung people it thought were saboteurs, it seemed terrible all around to me.
 
I bet its pretty harsh. In Tom Colleton's POV in Drive to the East we have Colonel Colleton asking a bartender in Columbus if he feels embarrassed to do "n****r work". I bet there is a lot of those little social clashes. In Craigo's Marshal article he has the Mexican soldiers putting down a revolt of local Pennsylvanians right before Morrel's counter attack.

Then remember the US Soldiers were pretty brutal in their occupation of Houston. At least thats how Featherstone will paint it. I am sure there are a lot of soldiers that want to pay back the US for atrocities that have been all over the CSA newspapers for the last 7 years or so. The US seems to have hung people it thought were saboteurs, it seemed terrible all around to me.
Yeah it's said when Colleton visits Columbus that the Confederates shot a baker when he sneaked shredded glass into bread he baked for the troops, that prostitues were deliberately passing on the clap to soldiers, etc. In DTTE a resident of Lafayette PA also mentioned to Chester Martin after he and his company liberated the town that the Confederates hung dissidents. I would've imagined that during Operation Rosebud and immediately after the last Pittsburgh pockets fell, a general uprising erupted throughout Ohio.
 
That seems easy enough to imagine; I doubt that the United States would be foolish enough to neglect a chance to stab Confederate soldiery in the back while the Army guts them with full-frontal assaults (and whole the Coloured Guerrillas & Cuban Insurrectos would likely be more established, one imagines that more than a few Buckeyes would be eager to avenge themselves upon the occupying forces).
 
To be fair, I'm sure it also depended on if you were white or black. The latter definitely had it a lot worse under Confederate occupation.
 
To be fair, I'm sure it also depended on if you were white or black. The latter definitely had it a lot worse under Confederate occupation.
That's actually up for debate. The reason being is because in IATD, Jefferson Pinkard mention that there were no known cases of US blacks being shipped to camps. I'm sure that the handful in Ohio were placed in ghettos or prisons, but not the death camps.
 
That's actually up for debate. The reason being is because in IATD, Jefferson Pinkard mention that there were no known cases of US blacks being shipped to camps. I'm sure that the handful in Ohio were placed in ghettos or prisons, but not the death camps.

Oh no. I wasn't trying to imply that they were shipped to camps. But I'm sure that the majority were forced to deal with harsh treatment, and some even subjected to extrajudicial "justice".
 
I have recovered my article on the CSA Army in the SGW that I lost. Article to follow in the next few days. Anyone have some good ideas for CS Rocket artillery, infantry weapons, training and tactics? Anyone have any good names for inter-war officers, I have a core of four that was responsible for keeping the army alive. Anyone want to throw in some names?
 
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