A "Fair" Trianon.

According to Wikipedia:

The Treaty of Trianon is the peace treaty concluded at the end of World War I by the Allies of World War I, on one side, and Hungary, seen as a successor of Austria-Hungary, on the other.[1][2][3][4] It established the borders of Hungary and regulated its international situation. Hungary lost over two-thirds of its territory, about two-thirds of its inhabitants under the treaty and 3.3 million ethnic Hungarians.

This ofcourse was very hard on Hungary, the loss was devastating. One of the worst things was, that most of the 3.3 million ethnic Magyars were left just outside the border.

This caused Hungary to be very irredentist, and ally itself later to Hitler(Vienna Awards).

The question is: how would have a more balanced treaty affected Hungary and Europe? Would have Horthy, who had a dislike of Hitler and Szalasi allied Hungary with Nazi Germany? Would Hungary be strong enough to oppose? What happens with the 700.000 hungarian Jews exterminated in the holocaust?
 
You can probably get them a better border with Romania by avoiding the Hungarian Soviet Republic. But any treaty involving loss of territory would have been unacceptable to the Hungarians and caused irredentism.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of 'Hungary's area that was stripped from her populated by non-Magyars? Yes, there will have been large Magyar minorities in many of these areas, but I really, really doubt that the Ukrainians in Galicia or the Romanians in Transylvania wanted to be part of Hungary. What the Germans in Transylvania thought, I don't know.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of 'Hungary's area that was stripped from her populated by non-Magyars? Yes, there will have been large Magyar minorities in many of these areas, but I really, really doubt that the Ukrainians in Galicia or the Romanians in Transylvania wanted to be part of Hungary. What the Germans in Transylvania thought, I don't know.

Hungary would certainly not have been able to keep the Slovaks and Romanians in any post-war settlement (unless AH won or got out early) but the substantial populations of Transylvanian Magyars and Szeklers left in Romania made irredentism mainstream in Hungary between the wars.

BTW ISTR that most of Galicia was Austrian.
 
A fair Trianon for Hungary would be a unfair Trianon for the minor Entente powers, Hungary had been the enemy (as one half of the Austro- Hungarian Empire), while Romania and Serbia had been allies, I can't see Hungary keep Vojvodina, Banat or Transylvania. When it comes to Slovakia, it's clear that the Slovaks wanted out, while the Croats are somewhat more complicated, however the Croats had for a long time been quite free from Budapest (and would be offended they were not as free from Belgrade after the war). However the only way I can see Hungary keep Slovakia and Croatia would be if Woodrow Wilson had not preached for self- determination for all people of Europe. After that it was quite clear the Magyars would lose all territory where they weren't the majority.
 
The germans in Transylvania actualy aproved the romanians decision to join with Romania.
I know it is only wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania
The romanians were the majority in the province of Transylvania.

Wikipedia is correct in this case. To make a long and complicated story short, the Transylvanian Germans disliked the Hungarians, because the Hungarians were trying to Magyarize them. They traditionally looked to Vienna for support against Budapest, but after 1918 that obviously wasn't going to work.

They didn't much care for the Romanians either, but viewed them as the lesser of two evils -- they believed that they'd be able to keep their (fairly high) social and economic status better under rule from Bucharest.

As someone already mentioned, the whole Bela Kun thing didn't help. The Transylvanian Germans were very conservative, and were horrified by Hungary's brief flirtation with Communism.


Doug M.
 
This caused Hungary to be very irredentist, and ally itself later to Hitler(Vienna Awards).

Well, Bulgaria lost a lot less than Hungary, but was every bit as irredentist.

Would have Horthy, who had a dislike of Hitler and Szalasi allied Hungary with Nazi Germany? Would Hungary be strong enough to oppose? What happens with the 700.000 hungarian Jews exterminated in the holocaust?

-- Horthy started off as Hitler's lap-dog-cum-jackal, eagerly snapping up the scraps (Slovakia, Vienna Award, Banat) that the Fuhrer tossed his way.

-- The attack on the USSR was something else again. Hitler froze Horthy out of the planning for that, because he didn't like him, didn't trust him, figured the Hungarian state apparatus was penetrated with Communists and would leak (probably correct), and didn't think the Hungarians mattered much anyhow.

Horthy was mortified when he heard about Barbarossa, and insisted on joining it after the fact, declaring war on the USSR a week later (with Hitler more or less rolling his eyes and saying, okay, whatever).

Key point: Horthy's motivation was not so much irredentism (Hungary hadn't lost any land to the USSR) as fervent, mouth-breathing anti-Communism. A better Trianon wouldn't change that.

-- Note that Szalasi was just one of half a dozen diffferent Hungarian fascists. (Horthy of course was not a fascist. Conservative aristocrat turned military man-on-a-horse.) Normally fascist movements follow the Highlander Principle, but Hungary was sort of a weird exception, probably because the fascists never made it into power until the last few months of the war.


Doug M.
 
BTW ISTR that most of Galicia was Austrian.

It was only Austrian only in a way it was a part of Cisleithania (Austrian part of Austro-Hungary). Ethnically it was Polo-Ukrainian (with Poles dominant west and Ukrainians east, but there were also ethnic enclaves here and there).

BTW what were the plans for Hungarian borders BEFORE Bela Kun? Meaning, what the Entente had in store for it?
 
IMO you cannot get a much fairer Trianon than what we had, because all that it did was properly organize what had already happened. By the time it was signed the Czechs controlled Slovakia, the Serbs controlled Croatia and the Romanians controlled Transylvania, or a part of it at least. Any attempt to make it 'fairer' for Hungary would mean crossing the new states of Eastern Europe, something the Allies were not prepared to do.
 
Well, Bulgaria lost a lot less than Hungary, but was every bit as irredentist.

Not necessarily, look at how far people like Stamboliyski got.

Horthy's motivation was not so much irredentism (Hungary hadn't lost any land to the USSR) as fervent, mouth-breathing anti-Communism. A better Trianon wouldn't change that.

I think a big factor was the fact that Antonescu could influence Hitler to redraw the border in Romania's favor through his participation in the war against the Soviets; I think he was actually successful (in getting Hitler's promise, that is) not long before his overthrow. The reason for the Romanian administration of Transnistria was the hope that the area could later be ceded to the Germans in exchange for the old border with Hungary.
 
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From a Hungarian perspective there probably is no 'fair' division of the country; any division would have taken away historic Hungarian lands, parts of the Hungarian Kingdom for over a millenia, an idea to which virtually all Hungarians would have been opposed. The Kingdom of Hungary had a much stronger inner cohesion and historical consciousness than the Austrian Empire taken as a whole: Galicia and Croatia, for example, had pretty much nothing to do with each other, apart from both being annexed at one point to the ever expanding Habsburg realms; Hungary has however existed as a unified Kingdom for centuries.

Yet divison was inevitable. Ethnic minorities made up about half of the total population (without Croatia) and they mostly lived in compact groups where they made up majorities: Slovaks in the North, Romanians in Transylvania and Serbs in the South- all these people wanted either a country of their own or to join their already existing nation-states. Preserving such an anacronistically diverse Hungary in a Europe obsessed with ethnic identity would have probably been impossible either way.

What would have been fair, though, is to draw the political boundary according to the ethnic one, without such considerations as strategic railways or rivers with military importance- which was what happened in reality. The most striking unjustice was done with the Czechoslovakian border (Slovakia and Carpatho-Ruthenia of Ukraine now). Here, for reasons such as the strategic importance of the river Danube the border was drawn significantly souther than the Slovak-Hungarian ethnic boundary, through compactly Hungarian-inhabited lands. About 90% of the ~1 millon large Hungarian minority in Czechoslovakia became thus concetrated in a narrow strip along the border where Hungarians made up an 80%+ majority. Had the border respected the ethnic boundary, there would be virtually no Hungarian minority in Slovakia and Ukraine today. Whether the cities along the border, most notably Bratislava and Kosice, but also Nitra, Mukachevo and Uzhhorod could have gone to Hungary is debatable, but at the time they were all Hungarian majority (save for Bratislava which was ~40% Hungarian and ~40% German , but would almost surely have voted for Hungary).

In the south, some territory along Subotica, as the town itself, should have probably gone to Hungary as well; but in the most interesting part, in Transylvania, the situation is also the most complicated. Here, the largest Hungarian-majority area, the Szeklerland, where almost half of the Hungarians in Romania live, is in the easternmost part of Transylvania, separated by Hungary by large Romanian-majority lands. I just see no way in which this land could have been awarded to Hungary in any scenario; at least as many Romanians would have to go to Hungary as Hungarians, so from the point of view of ethnic justice nothing would be accomplished; instead Transylvania would just be divided in a very unnatural way, as it briefly happened indeed after the heavy-handed Vienna Dictates of Hitler.

Adjustments could have been made along the border, however. Here, again, strategic infrastructure and the importance of the chain of border-cities- Satu-Mare, Oradea, Arad- pushed the border more to the east than the ethnic makeup would suggest. The Satu-Mare area would have definitely gone to Hungary in a 'fair' deal, and in a particularily pro-Hungarian version maybe even Oradea and -pushing it- the Salaj region, where the ethnic balance was more equal.

Adding up all these adjustments there would have been about +1 million Hungarians left in Romania and less than 1 million in all the other lands added together; a significant number still, but at least 1,5 million lower than in reality, at the cost of keeping a minimal number of Slovaks, Romanians or Serbs within Hungary.
 
From a Hungarian perspective there probably is no 'fair' division of the country; any division would have taken away historic Hungarian lands, parts of the Hungarian Kingdom for over a millenia, an idea to which virtually all Hungarians would have been opposed. The Kingdom of Hungary had a much stronger inner cohesion and historical consciousness than the Austrian Empire taken as a whole: Galicia and Croatia, for example, had pretty much nothing to do with each other, apart from both being annexed at one point to the ever expanding Habsburg realms; Hungary has however existed as a unified Kingdom for centuries.

Yet divison was inevitable. Ethnic minorities made up about half of the total population (without Croatia) and they mostly lived in compact groups where they made up majorities: Slovaks in the North, Romanians in Transylvania and Serbs in the South- all these people wanted either a country of their own or to join their already existing nation-states. Preserving such an anacronistically diverse Hungary in a Europe obsessed with ethnic identity would have probably been impossible either way.

What would have been fair, though, is to draw the political boundary according to the ethnic one, without such considerations as strategic railways or rivers with military importance- which was what happened in reality. The most striking unjustice was done with the Czechoslovakian border (Slovakia and Carpatho-Ruthenia of Ukraine now). Here, for reasons such as the strategic importance of the river Danube the border was drawn significantly souther than the Slovak-Hungarian ethnic boundary, through compactly Hungarian-inhabited lands. About 90% of the ~1 millon large Hungarian minority in Czechoslovakia became thus concetrated in a narrow strip along the border where Hungarians made up an 80%+ majority. Had the border respected the ethnic boundary, there would be virtually no Hungarian minority in Slovakia and Ukraine today. Whether the cities along the border, most notably Bratislava and Kosice, but also Nitra, Mukachevo and Uzhhorod could have gone to Hungary is debatable, but at the time they were all Hungarian majority (save for Bratislava which was ~40% Hungarian and ~40% German , but would almost surely have voted for Hungary).

In the south, some territory along Subotica, as the town itself, should have probably gone to Hungary as well; but in the most interesting part, in Transylvania, the situation is also the most complicated. Here, the largest Hungarian-majority area, the Szeklerland, where almost half of the Hungarians in Romania live, is in the easternmost part of Transylvania, separated by Hungary by large Romanian-majority lands. I just see no way in which this land could have been awarded to Hungary in any scenario; at least as many Romanians would have to go to Hungary as Hungarians, so from the point of view of ethnic justice nothing would be accomplished; instead Transylvania would just be divided in a very unnatural way, as it briefly happened indeed after the heavy-handed Vienna Dictates of Hitler.

Adjustments could have been made along the border, however. Here, again, strategic infrastructure and the importance of the chain of border-cities- Satu-Mare, Oradea, Arad- pushed the border more to the east than the ethnic makeup would suggest. The Satu-Mare area would have definitely gone to Hungary in a 'fair' deal, and in a particularily pro-Hungarian version maybe even Oradea and -pushing it- the Salaj region, where the ethnic balance was more equal.

Adding up all these adjustments there would have been about +1 million Hungarians left in Romania and less than 1 million in all the other lands added together; a significant number still, but at least 1,5 million lower than in reality, at the cost of keeping a minimal number of Slovaks, Romanians or Serbs within Hungary.
Reliving a 3 year-old thread, hmm? My first post in this forum was to relive a 5 year-old thread. Keep on trying :)

Anyway, agreed: a reasonable Trianon would put all contiguous ethnic Magyar territory within Hungary (thus sans Székely Land). Transylvania is indeed a melting pot but with less non-Székly Hungarians in Transylvania couldn't the Romanians try to sell the handy idea that Transylvanian Hungarians are not Hungarians at all but Székely: an Hungarian-speaking Romanian ethnicity? :cool:
 

MSZ

Banned
Bratislava would definitly remain with Czechoslovakia - the numbers provided by the Hungarian cenzus was hardly authentic, as the Hungarians authorities routinely signed in everyone who didn't identify them as a member of a nationality was signed in as Hungarian. Hence, everyone who in the cenzus named himself "Bratislavian/Pressburgian" immiedietly became Hungarian in the books.

As for the southern strip of Slovakia - it could have gone to Hungary, thus making Slovakia more of a nation state. Also Carpatho-Ruthenia could have easily been left to Hungary if it wasn't to Benesz's Russophilia. Wojvodina would most likely had to go, Serbia was an ally and a victim - best thing Hungary could hope for would be a plebiscite to divide the province. Transylvania could have been divided as well - The Treaty of Bucharest was technically there, but by switching sides, Romania did de facto break it - not to mention nobody would really want to enforce it.

Avoiding the Civil War in Hungary would be the best possible scenario, as it would deny the Czechs, Romanians and Serbs to simply walk into Hungary, occupy the territories they were interested in and waiting for Hungary to accept the facti acompli. If the Hungarians would have a stable government and a army to back it, the war with Romania could bring Hungary to the negotiating table and allow for at least northern Siebenburgen with Szekely County to remain with it. Also, it's not unlikely that Hungary could butterfly away Czechoslovakia away - if they offered to create a independent Slovakia to Stefanik (what would be beneficial for both of them - Slovaks get full independence, Hungarians keep the border strip and Trancarpathia and don't have a powerful neighbour in the north), he could rally the slovak political parties behind him to oppose Benesz and support full independence.
 

abc123

Banned
IMO the only "fair" solution was to pull ethnic border in Vojvodina, Slovakia, baranja and Ukraine so that areas where Hungarians were majority become part of Hungary, provided naturally if they have contiguos teritorial connection with rest of Hungary. About Szeklers, the only thing that I can remember is population exchange, so that Hungary get's area near of border with Romania, approximatly of size of Szeklerland, and that all Szeklers move to Hungary, and all Romanians move to Szeklerland.
 

MSZ

Banned
About Szeklers, the only thing that I can remember is population exchange, so that Hungary get's area near of border with Romania, approximatly of size of Szeklerland, and that all Szeklers move to Hungary, and all Romanians move to Szeklerland.

That's ethnic cleansing. FAR from fair, especially since Szekely could be connected with the Hungarian heartland via a corridor through Cluj and Salaj.
 

abc123

Banned
That's ethnic cleansing. FAR from fair, especially since Szekely could be connected with the Hungarian heartland via a corridor through Cluj and Salaj.

It could, but THAT would leave big number of Romanians to live in Hungary, and they didn't want that.
Also, better to solve that problem once for all.
 

abc123

Banned
Three counties of Romania with largest Hungarian/Szekler population are: Covasna, Harghita and Mures. They have area of about 17 000 square kilometers. So, simply, Romania gives to Hungary area of about 17 000 sq. kil. near of their border, say counties Satu mare ( allready has big number of Hungarians ), Salaj ( also allready has big number of Hungarians ), Bihor ( also has large number of Hungarians ) and say Arad county ( I added a little bit larger area for Hungary because in forementioned counties there's allready large number of Hungarians ), all Hungarians move there and all romanians move in that three counties. Case closed.
If someone doesn't want to go, his native country will forget that they have any remaining minority in Hungary/Romania.
 

MSZ

Banned
Wouldn't creating a narrow corridor to Szekely still lead to Hungarian Siebenburgen having more Hungarians than Romanians? The territory awarded to Hungary during the Secon Vienna Award only had a small Romanian majority - if it was narrowed down. it would have a Hungarian majority.

Or another option - make Szekly an Hungarian enclave in Romania. While this might be asking for trouble and future conflict, it would propably be the most "fair" option, as the Romanians would still be subjects of Romania and the Hungarians still subjects of Hungary,
 
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