American Empire 1783

[SunilTanna]

Imagine that the US conquers some territory with lots of hostile inhabitants during the American revolution, and because this territory is considered strategically important for US security, retains it at the peace.

The US then develops in a way, that denies equal status as citizens to the inhabitants of this territory - it's a sort of colony from the outset, and the US Constitution includes provisions for such territories.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Lord Grattan]

Is this supposed to be a DBWI?

[Roberto]

Um, where would this territory be? I can't exactly see America in the 1700s having an overseas empire.

[SunilTanna]

Caribbean?

Bermuda?

Part of Canada?

Some part of North America that is packed with Loyalists (maybe a different American revolution, perhaps a more brutal one, makes a particular region go super-Loyalist if the Continentals are perceived as the bad guys in that region?)

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by SunilTanna

Imagine that the US conquers some territory with lots of hostile inhabitants during the American revolution, and because this territory is considered strategically important for US security, retains it at the peace.

The US then develops in a way, that denies equal status as citizens to the inhabitants of this territory - it's a sort of colony from the outset, and the US Constitution includes provisions for such territories.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

It did. It was called the Old Northwest Territory.

[SunilTanna]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

It did. It was called the Old Northwest Territory.

According to wikipedia it only contained "45,000 Native Americans and 4,000 traders, mostly French and British"

I'm thinking about some kind of territory with lots of hostile, probably relatively advanced, natives.... that the US would aim to keep as a permanent colony, rather than gradually absorb.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by SunilTanna

I'm thinking about some kind of territory with lots of hostile, probably relatively advanced, natives.... that the US would aim to keep as a permanent colony, rather than gradually absorb.

There are. They are called indian reservations.

Another possibility would be the Cherokee Nation, since the Iroquis Confederation was pretty much wiped out during the ACW. And the Cherokee were one of the most advanced indian nations around at the time.

[Lord Grattan]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

It did. It was called the Old Northwest Territory.

I have a hunch he knows that.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Lord Grattan

I have a hunch he knows that.

Didn't appear that he did. The general parameters of the WI practically imply that its impossible to meet all requirements. The US can not annex territory that would have lots of Loyalists since the Loyalists were clearly moved away from land that would potentially be annexed by the US. Also there are clear provisions in the Constitution that territories may eventually be admitted into the Union as states.

[SunilTanna]

> Also there are clear provisions in the Constitution that territories may eventually be admitted into the Union as states.

That's the whole point! What if the Constitution was different, because the circumstances in which it were drawn up were different.

When the US went on its little Empire building spree in the late 19th century, excuses were found, even within the Constitution for some conquered areas effectively being colonies. Despite the fact that basically the same excuses had been rejected as legally impossible 30 years earlier.

What if no such excuses were necessary, because the ATL Constitution had anticipated annexing territory as pseudo-colonies as well as proper US territory?

[Grimm Reaper]

This would be the US which in this period reduced the army to a total of @80 soldiers, then established a unit of 700 soldiers to go to Ohio the next day, and formal designation for this unit along with the tour of duty's length coming months later?

[SunilTanna]

I'm trying to find a way to mess with the American Revolution, presumably involving extra brutality and longer fighting, to make the resulting state into one which anticipates it may need to make wars of aggression and conquests in future, as a sort of form of pre-emptive defence.

[Sachyriel]

It beats spanish-speaking states into submission while Spain is occupied with something, and makes them into a semi-occupied state, but denies them right due to language barriers?

[Valdemar II]

Quebec would be the obvious case.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by mmmeee0

It beats spanish-speaking states into submission while Spain is occupied with something, and makes them into a semi-occupied state, but denies them right due to language barriers?

That could be applied to Florida.

There could be an interesting three way war when the South rises in rebellion. The North vs. the South vs. the Colonies.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by SunilTanna

> Also there are clear provisions in the Constitution that territories may eventually be admitted into the Union as states.

That's the whole point! What if the Constitution was different, because the circumstances in which it were drawn up were different.

When the US went on its little Empire building spree in the late 19th century, excuses were found, even within the Constitution for some conquered areas effectively being colonies. Despite the fact that basically the same excuses had been rejected as legally impossible 30 years earlier.

What if no such excuses were necessary, because the ATL Constitution had anticipated annexing territory as pseudo-colonies as well as proper US territory?

The overall problem is that of immigration and settlement and the all important representation. The conquered lands will be governed by a colonial government who's authority stems from the Constitution. Its pretty likely that American citizens will move into areas to take advantage of resources etc. Once they live there and want representation in Washington why shouldn't they eventually vote and receive statehood? The whole reason a colony will want to become a state is access to Federal money and grants. Who do you think gets more money from the Federal budget - American Samoa or North Dakota?

[Ris4history]

Here'sa possibility for this TL. WI the USA develops a continental empire as Czarist Russia did in Siberia and Central Asia. Let's play with a USA that only includes the present states east of the Mississippi River. These states might operate under an improved version of the Articles of Confederation. The Louisiana Purchase could become a "colonial reserve" full of hostile and nonhostile Native Americans. There would be some American colonist that would move into this territory. They would be farmers, trappers and traders. Think fur trade as a colonial product. In my next post I'll throw together a skeleton ATL.

[Ris4history]

1)The USA fights and wins the ARW.
2)The Confederation Congress creates the Northwest Ordinace and the Southwest Ordinance. Both of these laws prohibit slavery. The Americans Founders, as I understand it, felt slavery would die off. There was no cotton plantation culture at this time. The "old" southwest would have had no reason for large slave populations.
3)The Louisiana Purchase occurs as OTL.
4)The LP is explored but is seen as a colonial territory
5) Let's get totally wacky and say that the ASBs deliver Rupert's Land to
the infant USA
6)Vancouver and the Oregon territory stay British
7)The USA & Mexico still fight their war. It could be started over Mexican treatment of colonist or merchants in Texas
8)The USA wins war, but instead of getting a lot of desert and Apaches, the USA takes the northern Gulf coast Mexican states. They are more fit for agriculture and have large populations that would buy manufactered goods.
9)So you have a vast territorial expanse that might be seen colonial fodder and not American state material.
Please feel free toflesh this out. I have some other ideas for later on in American history.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

Another possibility would be the Cherokee Nation, since the Iroquis Confederation was pretty much wiped out during the ACW.

I'd actually be very interested to read a timeline in which the Iroquois Confederation was pretty much wiped out during the American Civil War...

[Xenos]

The Americans were practicing imperialism as soon as they gained independence. They expanded their territory at the expense of the native inhabitants of those lands, destroying them and their culture in the process. So if that isn't imperialism then my understanding of the definition is seriousy flawed.
This is why the USA did not try to build an overseas empire after independence, because they first had to dominate their own continent. That, and they were seriously lacking in naval power until the beginning of the 20th century.