Transylvania

Bavarian Raven

Banned
so with a POD between the 13 and 16 hundreds, how can we get "saxons" (which i know is a loose term for the germanic settlers brought into this region) to form their own independent nation. and could this nation survive until the 21st century. what would it look like and how would it impact the world today. (big questions i know but i want to write a bit on this subject at a later date and am looking for some ideas):cool:

Transylvania-map.jpg
 

rcduggan

For one, the Transylvania Saxons were already autonomous and not under feudal rule within Hungary. But for total independence, how's this:

There is no Union of the Three Nations in Transylvania. So the Magyars, Saxons, and Szeklers stay more divided. Assuming that the Hungarians still lose at Mohács (ignoring any butterflies in the meantime), Transylvania will still become independent. But maybe it would be three separate principalities: Hungarian / Magyar Transylvania, Transylvanian Saxony, and Szeklery.

None of them will last long, and will probably be conquered by the Romanians or the Ottomans.
 

Bavarian Raven

Banned
There is no Union of the Three Nations in Transylvania. So the Magyars, Saxons, and Szeklers stay more divided. Assuming that the Hungarians still lose at Mohács (ignoring any butterflies in the meantime), Transylvania will still become independent. But maybe it would be three separate principalities: Hungarian / Magyar Transylvania, Transylvanian Saxony, and Szeklery.
Click to expand...

i was just thinking, while researching back on my ancestory in this region that this could make a cool TL with interesting results...
 

Bavarian Raven

Banned
so here's my thoughts on the topic...

in the mid 1140s there was a "downturn" in the relations between the Hungarian and the German Empire. then in 1148, Conrad the Second dies. for the next several decades relations between the two empires were fairly sour.
then in 1162 the Hungarian king dies at the surprisingly young age of 31. this dampens relations almost to the point of war.

not the point of divergence.

lets say that the new hungarian king is more overambitious then he really was. and a war breaks out between the german and hungarian empires. the "saxons" in transylvania who now feel betrayed by the hungarians are rallied by a young local german nobleman and declare independence...

so what do you think of this for a TL?

trans is a natural fortress, especially in those days. with high alp like mountains on three sides with few passes, and rivers and long unbroken stretches of forests on the fourth side the small population of trans (300,000-400,000) could easily hold off the hungarian forces who would also be battling the germans at the same time.

trans. is also a region blessed in natural resources with substantial deposists of iron, copper, and gold, lumber, good farm and vin land and fishing in the rivers...

would anyone like to see a timeline about a the rise and fall of a brief trans. kingdom?
 

Susano

Banned
However, the Transylvanian Saxons only arrived en masse after the Mongols had devasted Hungary, IIRC, so a 12th century PoD is too early. Also, while I do maintain there was such a thing than national identity even at that time, sou Hunagrian relations to the HRE wouldnt autromatically mean sour relation between Hunagrian crown and Saxon settlers.

What about that? Due to *handwaving, mumble-humble* the Wallachians (Romanians) in Transylvania get a better standing in the 14th century. Or the Transylvanian Saxosn loses its privbileges and uatonomy towards the Hungarian nobility. Whatever, in any case the Transylvanian Saxons now think themselves to be in a disadvantageous position, so when the Ottomans come, they ally with them. As IOTL, Transylvania becomes an Ottoman vasall, but under the rule of a loyal population class, that being the Transylvanian Saxons.
 

Sovereign12

How about in the mid-1400s the Low German speaking Saxons of the Teutonic Knights finally had enough and split off from the order, finding refuge in the Transylvanian region. Electing a new Grand Master, of their own, from their ranks.
 

Bavarian Raven

Banned
However, the Transylvanian Saxons only arrived en masse after the Mongols had devasted Hungary, IIRC, so a 12th century PoD is too early. Also, while I do maintain there was such a thing than national identity even at that time, sou Hunagrian relations to the HRE wouldnt autromatically mean sour relation between Hunagrian crown and Saxon settlers.

What about that? Due to *handwaving, mumble-humble* the Wallachians (Romanians) in Transylvania get a better standing in the 14th century. Or the Transylvanian Saxosn loses its privbileges and uatonomy towards the Hungarian nobility. Whatever, in any case the Transylvanian Saxons now think themselves to be in a disadvantageous position, so when the Ottomans come, they ally with them. As IOTL, Transylvania becomes an Ottoman vasall, but under the rule of a loyal population class, that being the Transylvanian Saxons.
Click to expand...

i do like this later date idea, because i am sorta aiming for an 'isolated' german kingdom theme:D but first i will have to research some more...

so if anyone has any ideas please feel free to add em...:cool:
 

rcduggan

Sovereign12 said:
How about in the mid-1400s the Low German speaking Saxons of the Teutonic Knights finally had enough and split off from the order, finding refuge in the Transylvanian region. Electing a new Grand Master, of their own, from their ranks.
Click to expand...

I think the Knights would be more likely to go to wherever their other holdings in Europe are, rather than a place their forefathers were expelled from by the Hungarians. Maybe An der Etsch or Mergentheim, the latter of which was the OTL headquarters of the Knights after losing Prussia.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Susano said:
And maybe Muslim Transylvanian Germans?:cool:
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I think they would be better of if they stayed Lutheran, and tried to promote Protestant immigration from the HRE. If they became Muslim they would be driven out when the Austrians reconquered them.
 

Nekromans

Awesome idea! Transylvanias should be independent more often. By law.

Ridwan Asher said:
Yummmmmy~~..... :cool::cool::cool:
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"Yummy"? That reminds me of a comic I once saw - Brain Fist, I think.

"Sure, I love Muslims. But I couldn't eat a whole one."

"Heh."

"Not for lack of trying, you understand..." *he reveals bloodstained hands*
 

Susano

Banned
Valdemar II said:
I think they would be better of if they stayed Lutheran, and tried to promote Protestant immigration from the HRE. If they became Muslim they would be driven out when the Austrians reconquered them.
Click to expand...

IF the Austrians reconquer them ;)
Not that the Austrians were exactly nice ti the Hungarian Protestants upon reconquest, mind. Which started two or three uprisings.
 

Ridwan Asher

Nekromans said:
"Yummy"? That reminds me of a comic I once saw - Brain Fist, I think.

"Sure, I love Muslims. But I couldn't eat a whole one."

"Heh."

"Not for lack of trying, you understand..." *he reveals bloodstained hands*
Click to expand...

Is it our fault if we seem to be quite tasty to the cannibalistic kuffars ? ;)

Anyway, I'm always very fond of ATL ideas in which a particular ethnic endorse a religion different from OTL that would seem verrry quirky from OTL perspective, such as :
Islam endorsed by :
- Jews
- Greeks
- Slavs outside of the Balkans
- Japanese
Christianity endorsed by :
- Indonesian ethnic(s) (WI there was/were native Christian kingdom(s) in Nusantara?)
- Indian ethnic(s) (Like the above, except in India, obviously)
(Both features, for me would require NOT the whole of the respective region become solidly Christian, except for Oriental Christianity in Indonesia and without colonization.)
Buddhism endorsed by :
- European nation(s), obviously ;) But not after 1900 AD.
- African nation(s)

Apart of the aboves, I would also like to see pre-modern Jewish community(ies) in an exciting (by my obviously in-understandable standard) places where they weren't there IOTL, such as in Indonesian islands, etc.
 

rcduggan

Ridwan Asher said:
Apart of the aboves, I would also like to see pre-modern Jewish community(ies) in an exciting (by my obviously in-understandable standard) places where they weren't there IOTL, such as in Indonesian islands, etc.
Click to expand...


Sorry for the derailing and sorry for the plug in advance: in my Khazar timeline I am writing, the Radhanites (Jewish merchants) survive and thrive. One of the effects from that is that Jewish communities pop up along their trade routes, one of which went through Sumatra. So there we go. :cool:


As for the Saxon Muslim suggestion: in OTL, how many Catholic / Protestant Hungarians converted during Ottoman rule? That could serve to be a gauge for the religion of Transylvanian Saxony.
 
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