A Tale of an AH Gaming Console War

Nevermore · Jul 19, 2008

Hello all, I'm not sure whenever I'll be able to begin this one, but it'll be my first foray into truly trying to write an ATL. So until I ever get back to this, consider this just a teaser, alright? The meat of this will be doing this as we switch around through time from the points of view for developers and gamers alike as this alternate hardware 'Cold War' continues on.

Tell me, do you know what that is? If you haven't guessed, it's the Sega Dreamcast. As you probably know, Sega dropped out of the console race in North America in 2001 (starting in 1999 for Europe and the USA; 1998 for Japan), but still lingered on in Japan until 2006. There are several factors that played into its failure: the launch of the Sony PlayStation 2, Sega's financial exhaustions from the failed Sega CD and Sega 32X along with the bad launch and premature death of the Sega Saturn, lack of strong third party support, and no strong marketing plan in North America. It was a great console, in this humble poster's opinion, and she will surely be missed by him.

And yet...did it have to be this way? Could we have kept Microsoft and Sony out of the console race? Could Sega have triumphed if they had done some things differently? What of Nintendo, as well?

An important factor in the Dreamcast's decline was heavy financial debt inflicted upon it by two ugly peripherals on the waning power of the Sega Genesis: the 32X and CD. Now mind, the CD actually had some potential in it, and while it usually had what is called 'shovelware,' it did do things first like introduce full motion video into the mainstream, which would help, in OTL, the PlayStation, wherein Sony had several teams working with Sega on the Sega CD console. Sony once offered to partner with Sega to make a console, which kicked Sony over and to try and get into Nintendo's good graces. The man who the Genesis owes a lot of her might against in North America against the Super Nintendo juggernaut was the president of Sega of America, Tom Kalinske (running from 1990 to 1996), creator of the popular "Sega Scream" campaign. He lived, breathed, ate, and slept the Genesis and helped keep her going for as long as she did. He eventually left because of his disagreements with Sega of Japan over the release of the 32X...but what if that had never happened? What if the 32X never saw the light of day and they had focused instead on the upcoming 32-bit system, the Sega Saturn? This butterfly ensures no rushed console, perhaps stronger third party support, and will take away some of the damage done to Sega's finances.

Nintendo had been, at this time, been a bit worried over whether or not the Sega CD would succeed it. If we take the 32X out of the equation, it's possible Nintendo could be more worried about the CD and...go straight into Sony's arms. Did you know that the 'PlayStation' originally started out as a Super Nintendo add-on? It's true, but in OTL, Nintendo eventually rejected Sony in favor of Phillips, and supported their god awful CD-i system (yup, with the crappy Legend of Zelda 'trilogy' and Mario game made for it you're probably familiar with if you know what a YouTube Poop is, or are at least familiar with video game memes). But let us suppose that Nintendo, in the perceiving of a stronger support for the Sega CD, took Sony up on that offer? Historically, prior to the Nintendo 64, all Nintendo consoles in Japan were actually floppy-disk based systems, which earned the title 'Famicom' (Family Computer). The idea behind the 'Nintendo PlayStation' was to bring that convenience over to America and Europe, with a bit more processing power behind it. So what might one of these bad boys have looked like?

Now, would it have been a success? This is a bit debatable, however, I think that at least it may have done better than the Sega CD (which we will presume is falling out in favor now of the Sega Saturn), as Nintendo was rolling in third party support those days, and the fact that Sony had brought CD-based console experience to the deal. So what might have happened? If it had been a success, perhaps Sony would have struck a similar deal with Nintendo: to make consoles together. And Nintendo, echoing our world with the unveiling of the Wii and bringing a whole paradigm to gaming, accepts this offer. One of the reasons, a major one, in OTL that Sony had decided to make the PlayStation was because of the rejection of both Nintendo and Sega at her proposals. With one of these at least met, and Sony seeing a steady amount of revenue now, and in the future, this safely butterflies the existence of the PlayStation away.

And with this, ironically, the eventuality of Bill Gates realizing he might need to 'save the future of multimedia entertainment' is also probably butterflied away (he realized this around 1999 and the year right now is probably 1994 or 1995; with no PlayStation, he probably has no reason to worry). What's also good about this is that Microsoft will eventually be in talks with Sega to help put out the Dreamcast (it did have the sticker 'runs on Windows CE' on it, after all). Ever wonder why, after Sega of America was closing down, Microsoft released the Xbox with such a similar controller? With a successful Dreamcast we're positing, the Xbox will never see fruition. I don't think Sega would be strife to Microsoft either, and it may be a partnership similar to what we're suggesting Sony and Nintendo have right now.

-Edited: realized that Apple probably is a poor choice for a third party company; research will resume and determine who's going to stay in-

HueyLong · Jul 19, 2008

Apple doesn't have the same capacity for entering the console wars as Microsoft. gates was willing to run far in the red, Jobs would not be willing.

Strategos' Risk · Jul 19, 2008

Awesome! A gaming AH. You might want to remember that Apple did try making a gaming console back in the early 90s, though.

Nevermore · Jul 19, 2008

HueyLong said:
Apple doesn't have the same capacity for entering the console wars as Microsoft. gates was willing to run far in the red, Jobs would not be willing.

I suppose this is technically a valid point, but since the idea of the thread was to have Sega survive, I was pondering a 'third party' and decided a sort of 'why not?' for Apple. Despite the fact that it would be very dangerous waters for Apple to try to get a console out on the market, they won't truly have any competition, in a sense. Think of them, whenever they appear, a bit like the Wii right now: a sort of pacifistic third party that isn't truly interested in competing with the 'main stream'...at least at first. Rumors of an Apple console have been on and off for several years now, usually do to Apple worrying about how they would do financially if they went up against the PlayStation and Xbox with their 'iPlay' (not an actual title, but it's one amongst Mac/Apple fans) Sega may have the juggernaut of Microsoft behind them, but Apple won't be in direct competition with 'em.

Strategos' Risk said:
Awesome! A gaming AH. You might want to remember that Apple did try making a gaming console back in the early 90s, though.

Aye, I'm familiar that Apple experimented with Bandai on a joint venture on some sort of...home computer, wasn't it? With no true 'big names' like Sony or Microsoft to scare her away, I'm thinking that the Apple of this ATL might just be a bit braver to try one more time.

HueyLong · Jul 19, 2008

But you're changing home electronics way before Apple has become the cool/hip/non-mainstream brand. Back when you have the POD, they were just the odd man out.

The iPod hit it big on consumer electronics and its far from ensured with a POD that far back.

Alikchi · Jul 19, 2008

This is really great, Nevermore. I love unorthodox AH like this, keep it up.

Nevermore · Jul 19, 2008

HueyLong said:
But you're changing home electronics way before Apple has become the cool/hip/non-mainstream brand. Back when you have the POD, they were just the odd man out.

The iPod hit it big on consumer electronics and its far from ensured with a POD that far back.

True enough, however, maybe I haven't really been clear: Apple isn't going to be going out until way later. This is the early 90s right now, I realize that. The iPod doesn't even exist at this point, I realize that. I'll clean this up tomorrow or whatnot, but what I mean is that Apple won't be around for quite a while. Up until around 2001-2002 (when Apple finally decides to try to launch the console sometime after they launch the iPod), it's just going to be Nintendo and Sega still slugging it out with one another. They haven't completely gotten past the early-to-mid 90s 'Nintendo vs. Sega' thing they had going on. In other words, my foreshadowing of the iPlay there was sort of giving us a glimpse into the future that these three way combatants will be going into. Sega with the Dreamcast and Nintendo with whatever they and Sony are going to cook up.

HueyLong · Jul 19, 2008

They can't do it in time to be an analogue of the Xbox. Too close to the iPod release, which means they will be at first, strapped on cash and development power and then rolling in it and wisely directing it to similar features. It offers no avenue for investment in the gaming market.

Microsoft had a pretty good set up as it was- they had Microsoft Gaming Studios, they had the huge majority of computer gaming and the Xbox was basically a computer, built with off the shelf parts. Mac can't really compare.

Nevermore · Jul 19, 2008

HueyLong said:
They can't do it in time to be an analogue of the Xbox. Too close to the iPod release, which means they will be at first, strapped on cash and development power and then rolling in it and wisely directing it to similar features. It offers no avenue for investment in the gaming market.

Microsoft had a pretty good set up as it was- they had Microsoft Gaming Studios, they had the huge majority of computer gaming and the Xbox was basically a computer, built with off the shelf parts. Mac can't really compare.

Anti-Mac hostility, eh?

Just kidding, anyway...I am seeing your point. This could be a bit difficult. So if we're to get this working (Apple in the console ring), what do you recommend goes differently in this world? What would you posit a possible date for the Apple console to perhaps launch at?

This could actually make, ironically, the iPlay analogue to what the Dreamcast became in OTL (a nice piece of hardware, undercut by software perhaps). However, I do want to try to keep Apple going in this race, so...perhaps we say that Apple begins to invest in bringing in game developers? Supposedly, they did this a few years ago in OTL too.

HueyLong · Jul 19, 2008

Well, I think mobile gaming could provide an interesting segue into console gaming..... never happened IOTL (though the reverse has happened.... plenty to varying results.) If you want it to be a non-mainstream Wii type console, well, I personally think the Wii was affected by the DS, but maybe thats just me......

Say, the iPod includes games, and Apple continues packaging in-house games before opening up to the Indy scene and internet gaming (maybe an XNL approach?) and eventually, releases an iPlay- a handheld mobile gaming device with a lot of options. Eventually, they try for a console highlighting connectivity, media features and of course, independent developers.

However, there is a problem with the timescale here:

Look here.

Sales didn't really reach great levels till 2006 for the iPod. So, no sooner than that and probably later.

Electric Monk · Jul 19, 2008

Nevermore said:
An important factor in the Dreamcast's decline was heavy financial debt inflicted upon it by two ugly peripherals on the waning power of the Sega Genesis: the 32X and CD.

Not just financial debt. Those two add-ons (particularly the 32X) convinced the third party community that Sega couldn't be trusted—reinforced by the surprise early launch of the Saturn. Coupled with Nintendo going with cartridges instead of CDs that left only Sony.

Basically your POD is that of a more successful Sega CD leading to no 32X and to Nintendo signing a better deal with Sony (as that was the sticking point, Nintendo's lawyers screwed up the original contract vastly in Sony's favour) and launching a moderately successful Nintendo Playstation CD add-on.

Reasonable enough.

Presumably, then, both the Ultra Nintendo and the Sega Saturn will be CD based.

A couple questions: Sega was offered the Nintendo 64's chipset but turned Silicon Graphics down—does this happen in the ATL?

Presumably the N64 now runs CDs—what does this do to the third party situation?

What happens with the Atari Jaguar and 3DO with possibly later Sega Saturn (due to the success of the Sega CD) and no Sony PlayStation?

Nevermore said:
I suppose this is technically a valid point, but since the idea of the thread was to have Sega survive, I was pondering a 'third party' and decided a sort of 'why not?' for Apple.

There are plenty of alternatives: have Atari do better with the Jaguar, have Commodore do better with the Amiga CD32 (or have Commodore get bought by someone), have 3DO do better, have NEC make a better PC Engine (TurboGrafix-16) follow-up, have Sony break off from Nintendo anyway, have Panasonic launch the M2 (aka the 3DO mk. 2—halfway between an N64 and a Dreamcast), etc….

Apple, particularly, is a poor choice. They don't do game software development, Jobs doesn't like gaming, and they've already (or will already pre-Jobs in the ATL with the Pippin, presumably) failed at it.

Nevermore · Jul 19, 2008

Electric Monk said:
Not just financial debt. Those two add-ons (particularly the 32X) convinced the third party community that Sega couldn't be trusted—reinforced by the surprise early launch of the Saturn. Coupled with Nintendo going with cartridges instead of CDs that left only Sony.

Basically your POD is that of a more successful Sega CD leading to no 32X and to Nintendo signing a better deal with Sony (as that was the sticking point, Nintendo's lawyers screwed up the original contract vastly in Sony's favour) and launching a moderately successful Nintendo Playstation CD add-on.

Presumably, then, both the Ultra Nintendo and the Sega Saturn will be CD based.

Sources I were reading were pretty vague on what exactly third party support was like for Sega, post-CD and 32X; thanks for the info though. You are essentially right though that Nintendo's successor to the Super Nintendo will be based on CDs, as well as this ATL's Sega Saturn. I'd imagine the Super Nintendo will continue to produce cartridges for its more mainstream SNES, but dual-create games for the PlayStation as well (sort of like how Sega attempted to balance the CD and regular Genesis in OTL). I'm not so sure about the contract however, as hearing about makes me believe that as it was vastly in Sony's favor, that would have been a system ripe for abuse. Perhaps it would have been a bit more...fair, somehow? Presuming that Nintendo's lawyers didn't screw up that badly, maybe. There is also a bit of a divergence point with the career of Tom Kalinske, the then president of Sega of America. As he split after the decision to release the 32X, or at least as it was a financial flop, denying the 32X the right to exist, and lessening that humiliation might make him stick around. As he was the man, as I said, who nearly singlehandedly make the Genesis what it was in advertising campaigns in North America, I figure that he might even continue on with the Saturn. With the Saturn's advent, and not having to help supervise anything for the 32X, it's likely he'll have more time to work out a better deal for Sega gamers before it's launch in this ATL (unlike how in OTL, it was around $399, it'll most likely be much, much less).

A couple questions: Sega was offered the Nintendo 64's chipset but turned Silicon Graphics down—does this happen in the ATL?

Presumably the N64 now runs CDs—what does this do to the third party situation?

What happens with the Atari Jaguar and 3DO with possibly later Sega Saturn (due to the success of the Sega CD) and no Sony PlayStation?

Electric Monk said:
There are plenty of alternatives: have Atari do better with the Jaguar, have Commodore do better with the Amiga CD32 (or have Commodore get bought by someone), have 3DO do better, have NEC make a better PC Engine (TurboGrafix-16) follow-up, have Sony break off from Nintendo anyway, have Panasonic launch the M2 (aka the 3DO mk. 2—halfway between an N64 and a Dreamcast), etc….

It's very tempting to have a revival of the Commodore model, however, this sort of conflicts with the idea that I've got that Microsoft still has quite the hold over the computer gaming market here, and that I'm not really sure how marketing or whatnot went with the CD32, though I hear it bombed in Europe. I think Sony is most likely going to stay under Nintendo's wing for this, as remember, this is still a continuation of the old console wars into the newer generation, even if that means keeping another third party afloat. I don't believe the Atari Jaguar could have pulled through, but that might just be personal bias on my part as I view it as a piece of junk. I'm a bit torn, as I suppose either keeping the TurboGrafix line or even the 3DO might be fun...I'm really not sure which one would be easier to work in here. TurboGrafix I'm leaning towards though, as it would be a bit easier to reconcile some of its lack of third party support problems, rather than the 3DO's ridiculous price (that the company refused to drop).

Electric Monk said:
Apple, particularly, is a poor choice. They don't do game software development, Jobs doesn't like gaming, and they've already (or will already pre-Jobs in the ATL with the Pippin, presumably) failed at it.

Ah, well...I guess I will take Apple off of the list then. Thanks for you and HueyLong pointing out it doesn't make much sens though, guess I might've been a bit boned over if I had kept using it. I figure that Pippin in this ATL will most likely still fail, the idea was to have a more console-based race than anything, so I didn't really plan on it being a 'PC' if you will.

Nevermore · Jul 19, 2008

Electric Monk said:
A couple questions: Sega was offered the Nintendo 64's chipset but turned Silicon Graphics down—does this happen in the ATL?

Presumably the N64 now runs CDs—what does this do to the third party situation?

What happens with the Atari Jaguar and 3DO with possibly later Sega Saturn (due to the success of the Sega CD) and no Sony PlayStation?

The fact that this is later (due to the Sega Saturn's now increased life span), it could be possible Sega may lag behind Nintendo for a bit on the issue of getting a 64-bit console, and still be a 32-bit competitor for a while (maybe briefly competing with the PC-FX), as this is new territory, they may take slow, cautious ground here. Or it could be possible that they might base the Sega Saturn's visuals off of Silicon Graphics' 64-bit chip, and Nintendo may utilize a similar one, or maybe even the same brand.

I'd imagine that some of games, first, third, and second party, are going to be a bit wonky at first. Nintendo has not had the experience with a major leap from consoles to cartridges (as they did with the time between the Nintendo 64 and GameCube), so some of these games might look a bit odd at first, and most of the early ones probably won't be very good. As for companies that, in OTL, moved away from Nintendo, like Squaresoft, it's a possibility they might jump ship into Sega's arms, or maybe even just work it out and start producing multiplatform games at a sooner rate for major competitors than in our OTL. Also consider what Sony is going to do for the future of Nintendo: eventually hi-def games, an actual online service (by the time that Wii-PS3 hybrid rolls around...), the ability to play music and movies, etc.

It's most likely going to be that the Atari Jaguar and 3DO will sink anyway, I think. The Jaguar is a sort of 'last stand' for Atari, and most likely will fall flat as it did in OTL. As for the 3DO, the lack of third party support for its hardware and its ridiculous price ($699.95 for those who don't know), is slowly poisoning it. This is not to say they'll die off immediately though, as the PlayStation isn't pressing anything on them here, I see the Jaguar having a feasibly longer lasting life span than the 3DO though.

President Al Bundy · Jul 19, 2008

This has potential indeed. What I wonder myself:

- What will happen with popular series like Grand Theft Auto or Metal Gear Solid? In the 90's, Nintendo didn't want many M-Rated games (The N64 had only a few like Duke Nukem 64, Doom 64, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Turok...holy cow, I can continue the list, but the main thing I'm speaking of is, that Nintendo focused more on kids), an Sega...well I can't imagine a GTA San Andreas for example on a Sega Dreamcast, or an Metal Gear Solid on Saturn, although I think Konami and Rockstar would have ported those games on Sega Consoles ATL.
- What about the Nomad? Would it have been more successful ITL?
- What about consoles like the 3DO or the Jaguar? They could fill the third place of consoles, maybe a console war of the underground or insider consoles.
- Speaking of GTA, would there be still a GTA Liberty City Stories or GTA Vice City Stories? And what about GTA IV? Well, this leads to the next question.
- Will the Wii have HD-graphics ITL? And what will be the Next-Gen Console from Sega? Maybe a "Sega 360" (OTL Xbox 360)?

I'm looking forward to updates, cause I ever asked myself what would have been if Sony made the Playstation with Nintendo.

Electric Monk · Jul 19, 2008

President Al Bundy said:
What will happen with popular series like Grand Theft Auto or Metal Gear Solid? In the 90's, Nintendo didn't want many M-Rated games (The N64 had only a few like Duke Nukem 64, Doom 64, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Turok...holy cow, I can continue the list, but the main thing I'm speaking of is, that Nintendo focused more on kids), an Sega...well I can't imagine a GTA San Andreas for example on a Sega Dreamcast, or an Metal Gear Solid on Saturn, although I think Konami and Rockstar would have ported those games on Sega Consoles ATL.

Sega was cool with the blood—remember Mortal Kombat in the SNES/Genesis days? Sega said yes, Nintendo said no—Sega won big.

I bet Sega will remember that lesson in the future.

President Al Bundy said:
- What about the Nomad? Would it have been more successful ITL?

Seems unlikely. Nintendo has always ruled the mobile roost, and even a more competent Sega couldn't do much better.

President Al Bundy said:
- What about consoles like the 3DO or the Jaguar? They could fill the third place of consoles, maybe a console war of the underground or insider consoles.

Atari had no first party studios, I figure that Panasonic picks up the M2 and launches it after a somewhat more successful 3DO.

Nevermore said:
The fact that this is later (due to the Sega Saturn's now increased life span), it could be possible Sega may lag behind Nintendo for a bit on the issue of getting a 64-bit console, and still be a 32-bit competitor for a while (maybe briefly competing with the PC-FX), as this is new territory, they may take slow, cautious ground here. Or it could be possible that they might base the Sega Saturn's visuals off of Silicon Graphics' 64-bit chip, and Nintendo may utilize a similar one, or maybe even the same brand.

There are a few options. PowerPC chips are on the market, MIPS is solid, and so forth.

A later launched Saturn that isn't a stupid "ultimate 2D" console in an age of 3D would probably use a MIPS Hitachi MH-2 in the 50 MHz plus range—if they turn down Silicon Graphics.

Nintendo, with Sony's hardware help, adds a sound chip (Sony made the sound chip for the SNES, and that's why the OTL N64 has no sound chip after their falling out) and more texture cache (the trademark "blurry" N64 look) which—with the space allowed by CDs—should make games look a lot better.

Nevermore said:
Sources I were reading were pretty vague on what exactly third party support was like for Sega, post-CD and 32X; thanks for the info though.

The Sega CD was sort of ok, because you're allowed a screw-up. The 32X combined with the just-after launch of the Sega Saturn (at $399 in a surprise "Sega is that stupid?" E3 launch promptly trumped by Sony's press conference: "$299") killed their third party American support.

EA pulled out after sort-of supporting the Saturn—which is why Sega had to do their own sports games for the Dreamcast—and American parties had a built-in dislike for Sega after that.

Japanese companies hated Nintendo's restrictions, so they were happy to jump ship and the small ones did to the Saturn (doing decently in Japan) but the big ones looked at American sales potential and went to Sony.

Nevermore said:
I don't believe the Atari Jaguar could have pulled through, but that might just be personal bias on my part as I view it as a piece of junk. I'm a bit torn, as I suppose either keeping the TurboGrafix line or even the 3DO might be fun...I'm really not sure which one would be easier to work in here. TurboGrafix I'm leaning towards though, as it would be a bit easier to reconcile some of its lack of third party support problems, rather than the 3DO's ridiculous price (that the company refused to drop).

True the Jaguar was a piece of junk, combined with a CD add-on and almost no exclusive games… Atari should have done something else with their time.

A more successful 3DO could lead to Panasonic fulfilling the Sony role with the M2 in '97 or so. (EA, particularly, backed the 3DO big and I think the computer like 3DO had a chance to pick up all the Western PC-only developers.) Panasonic's clout plus Western developers is a solid force.

Japanese developers quite liked NEC (makers of the PC-Engine) not least because they were allowed to put just about anything on it—including, let's say, all those games that Americans would have a problem with—and the Japanese were always way cooler with add-ons (I suspect both a better planned Sega CD and Nintendo Playstation will do well in Japan, as the PC-EngineCD did).

Will Lucky · Jul 19, 2008

President Al Bundy said:
This has potential indeed. What I wonder myself:

- What will happen with popular series like Grand Theft Auto or Metal Gear Solid? In the 90's, Nintendo didn't want many M-Rated games (The N64 had only a few like Duke Nukem 64, Doom 64, Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Turok...holy cow, I can continue the list, but the main thing I'm speaking of is, that Nintendo focused more on kids), an Sega...well I can't imagine a GTA San Andreas for example on a Sega Dreamcast, or an Metal Gear Solid on Saturn, although I think Konami and Rockstar would have ported those games on Sega Consoles ATL.

I'm going to take a guess and say that if Sega and Nintendo went head to head with Playstation never entering that the PC as a Format would have had a higher growth due to more M rated entering the market if neither Sega or Nintendo were fine with too many of them on there consoles.

Nevermore · Jul 19, 2008

Electric Monk said:
Sega was cool with the blood—remember Mortal Kombat in the SNES/Genesis days? Sega said yes, Nintendo said no—Sega won big.

This actually could also be analogue to OTL where Sony started to be more accepting of 'mature' content on their products than Nintendo did. However, they did have stuff like Doom on the Super Nintendo, Nintendo may just wise up a bit...

Electric Monk said:
Seems unlikely. Nintendo has always ruled the mobile roost, and even a more competent Sega couldn't do much better.

I'd have to concur with this; the Game Gear, once the GameBoy came onto the market, never really stood a chance against it, even if the GameBoy had been a predicted flop. This isn't to say Sega might not try to create 'another Game Gear' like it someday here in this ATL, but it might not be for awhile when her future here is clear.

Electric Monk said:
Atari had no first party studios, I figure that Panasonic picks up the M2 and launches it after a somewhat more successful 3DO.

This is true enough. While getting the Jaguar, and in turn, Atari, to survive is quite a time line challenge, I just don't think it's going to be viable so much. The only PoD I can imagine for the 3DO that might let it do better is the reduction of the pricing. Maybe Trip Hawkins has some second thoughts about how much it'll cost?

Electric Monk said:
There are a few options. PowerPC chips are on the market, MIPS is solid, and so forth.

A later launched Saturn that isn't a stupid "ultimate 2D" console in an age of 3D would probably use a MIPS Hitachi MH-2 in the 50 MHz plus range—if they turn down Silicon Graphics.

I suppose my honest question right now is: what partnership would be most economically viable for Sega? If we're going by OTL still, a bit, than Sega may still have been hurt somewhat from their Sega CD venture and might need to get something that would tide things over for the upcoming Saturn, but would still be cautious. Anything that might fit this bill?

Electric Monk said:
Nintendo, with Sony's hardware help, adds a sound chip (Sony made the sound chip for the SNES, and that's why the OTL N64 has no sound chip after their falling out) and more texture cache (the trademark "blurry" N64 look) which—with the space allowed by CDs—should make games look a lot better.

I sort of figured that some of the problems that plagued the N64 here wouldn't be so much for this new joint N64-PS1 hybrid. If I'm right in thinking, the sound chip will allow for better sound files than MIDIs, correct? That would improve Nintendo's reputation for sound quality on the market and may force Sega to try to keep up with it. The idea of non-blurry N64 games is also appealing as well, as with the added space should make games like Super Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie far better to look at. Also, what's your opinion of the controller for this? Should it be just like OTL's N64 controller? Or might Sony try to goad Nintendo into making it similar (making it more similar to OTL's PS1 controller)?

Electric Monk said:
The Sega CD was sort of ok, because you're allowed a screw-up. The 32X combined with the just-after launch of the Sega Saturn (at $399 in a surprise "Sega is that stupid?" E3 launch promptly trumped by Sony's press conference: "$299") killed their third party American support.

I suppose that means that ways need to be found for the Sega CD to have been more successful then, too...maybe a 'quality control' so crap couldn't flood it? Kind of like how games got the 'Official Nintendo Seal of Quality' or something? I think it's possible that, with Nintendo the only other competitor, Sega might not feel like they've got to upstage anyone and have that key lower price for the Saturn.

Electric Monk said:
EA pulled out after sort-of supporting the Saturn—which is why Sega had to do their own sports games for the Dreamcast—and American parties had a built-in dislike for Sega after that.

Japanese companies hated Nintendo's restrictions, so they were happy to jump ship and the small ones did to the Saturn (doing decently in Japan) but the big ones looked at American sales potential and went to Sony.

I did notice that Sega made all of their own sports games for the Dreamcast...but I guess the more prominent question is what could keep EA, an important third party developer, on board? A more successful Saturn (which we presume anyway)?

I did hear of Nintendo's nearly Fascist-like control over what went on for third-party companies, which is unfortunate, but definitely gives the advantage for this ATL Sega to take advantage of when some might be thinking of jumping ship with the advent of the N64-PS1 hybrid.

Electric Monk said:
True the Jaguar was a piece of junk, combined with a CD add-on and almost no exclusive games… Atari should have done something else with their time.

I think the only true problem was that they might have felt that they should at least just try to go out with a bang and be remembered for something rather than simply giving their last bow. Needless to say, it wasn't very successful.

Electric Monk said:
A more successful 3DO could lead to Panasonic fulfilling the Sony role with the M2 in '97 or so. (EA, particularly, backed the 3DO big and I think the computer like 3DO had a chance to pick up all the Western PC-only developers.) Panasonic's clout plus Western developers is a solid force.

This is also true too, so maybe it will be the 3DO. Panasonic filling the Sony void is rather interesting, but I'm not too sure how well it'll fill out for them. They might have some problems Sony didn't in OTL, and it might be hard to do a format war against Sony with a juggernaut like Nintendo backing Sony every step of the way. This brings the concept of a family-oriented entertainment into the mainstream, something that could seriously hurt Panasonic if they're not too careful. The notion of bringing home computers to the present day and still in is very interesting, and certain things will be needed to be looked at. If anything, I view the M2 probably filling a gap similar to the Xbox's; might have flunked if it weren't for some killer app (analogous to Halo: Combat Evolved, or whatever comes close).

Electric Monk said:
Japanese developers quite liked NEC (makers of the PC-Engine) not least because they were allowed to put just about anything on it—including, let's say, all those games that Americans would have a problem with—and the Japanese were always way cooler with add-ons (I suspect both a better planned Sega CD and Nintendo Playstation will do well in Japan, as the PC-EngineCD did).

I did hear that the Japanese particularly liked how NEC did things. Part of it may have been, as you suggest, that greater freedom to do whatever they wanted without supporting a draconian expectation system set by a higher company, or that's just how the Japanese are: independent and all that. Might we see an earlier death of the PC-FX if the Sega CD and Nintendo PlayStation do better?

Nevermore · Jul 19, 2008

President Al Bundy said:
I'm looking forward to updates, cause I ever asked myself what would have been if Sony made the Playstation with Nintendo.

Hope you enjoy this than, as it merely started out as an idea on how video games could have turned out if things had happened differently in certain cases. After all, what if...?

President Al Bundy said:
This has potential indeed. What I wonder myself:
- Will the Wii have HD-graphics ITL? And what will be the Next-Gen Console from Sega? Maybe a "Sega 360" (OTL Xbox 360)?

Ok, so Electric Monk pretty much covered what I was going to say, and elaborated on that. I will confirm to you that since the Wii is going to be an almagation of OTL's Wii, it will also be part of OTL's PS3. That's right folks, we could be seeing something like Super Mario Galaxy in HD. You are correct that Sega will have something akin to the 360 (running probably on Windows XP/Vista) if all things are go with Microsoft and are friendly. After all, since Panasonic has a computer-like console, they're going to need help in this area.

Electric Monk · Jul 20, 2008

I should note that my eventual third attempt at a modern history timeline will include video game stuff. (The first died because I wasn't happy, the second foundered on the issue of Hong Kong.)

My conclusions (not least because my POD is the late '70s) are somewhat different including odder stuff like Minidisc using consoles and a multi-brand 3DO/Atari mix (NEC & Panasonic ran the Japan side, with the Engine-FX).

Also my unfinished Apple Newton timeline—which will be somewhat wrapped into my third modern history attempt—included a Commodore which merged with Atari, launched an early Jaguar that competed with the SNES/Genesis, merged with Sun Microsystems (who owned NeXT and thus had Steve Jobs working for them in the ATL), and had a Commodore Amiga computer that could also play Jaguar games.

Just saying that some of my stuff comes from working it out for my own use.

Nevermore said:
This is true enough. While getting the Jaguar, and in turn, Atari, to survive is quite a time line challenge, I just don't think it's going to be viable so much. The only PoD I can imagine for the 3DO that might let it do better is the reduction of the pricing. Maybe Trip Hawkins has some second thoughts about how much it'll cost?

It probably does have to be pricing. However the Sega CD and Nintendo Playstation are on the market, and unlike OTL it's clear that their next-gen consoles are a late 1995 or 1996 approach.

Delay the 3DO a year and you cut a couple hundred bucks off the price and have a stronger game line-up because with the Atari Jaguar failure you're the only game in town—particularly and especially Western PC developers who never really made it to the console space until the Xbox.

Heck, after Atari sucks out loud for a year you can get ports of their good games as launch titles for the 3DO.

Nevermore said:
I suppose my honest question right now is: what partnership would be most economically viable for Sega? If we're going by OTL still, a bit, than Sega may still have been hurt somewhat from their Sega CD venture and might need to get something that would tide things over for the upcoming Saturn, but would still be cautious. Anything that might fit this bill?

I sort of figured that some of the problems that plagued the N64 here wouldn't be so much for this new joint N64-PS1 hybrid. If I'm right in thinking, the sound chip will allow for better sound files than MIDIs, correct? That would improve Nintendo's reputation for sound quality on the market and may force Sega to try to keep up with it. The idea of non-blurry N64 games is also appealing as well, as with the added space should make games like Super Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie far better to look at.

As with the Dreamcast (Sega of America wanted the 3dfx graphics chip—either the Voodoo2 or the Banshee—Sega of Japan wanted and went with the NEC PowerVR graphics chip[1]) I imagine it's a fight.

Hitachi, at the time and until around the Dreamcast OTL, is on the ball CPU wise. They match or beat the MIPS, ARM, PowerPC, whatever in the price/power envelope of a game console.

Given that they're also a Japanese company—a logical choice.

However the N64 Silicon Graphics chipset was amazing. Just flat-out excellent, hampered by no sound chip (i.e. a single audio stream used 1% of the signal processing half of the graphics chip capacity…*which was a very large hit) and no texture cache, and of course the super-compressed everything required by cartridges.

(Technically the N64 was capable of great sound, if you sacrificed graphics performance and/or CPU performance.)

A third, and perhaps more interesting, however: NEC manufactured the Silicon Graphics/MIPS designed processor in the N64. Perhaps Nintendo goes with Hitachi (or an American company) and Sega does a full-on partnership with NEC.

The Engine-FX, then, is simply an NEC branded Sega Saturn sold only in Japan? Or heck, maybe Sega flat out pulls out of Japan (always their least successful market, the OTL Saturn partially excepted) and lets NEC run that side of things while Sega concetrates on Europe and Japan.

They lose software royalties on released-in-Japan games, but they would also probably get exclusive first-publish-elsewhere rights on all the NEC published games.

It's a weird deal, but a Sega where Sega of America is calling the shots might go for it.

Nevermore said:
Also, what's your opinion of the controller for this? Should it be just like OTL's N64 controller? Or might Sony try to goad Nintendo into making it similar (making it more similar to OTL's PS1 controller)?

The reason it was so weird was because it was the first analogue stick controller in modern times and Nintendo wanted to keep their options open. However one could make it less odd. Take out the middle prong, move the analogue stick above the d-pad on the left, and shorten the width.

Think, uh, the VirtualBoy controller crossed with the N64 controller.

More lead time might also lead to the default Saturn controller having an analogue stick like their 3D controller.

Nevermore said:
I suppose that means that ways need to be found for the Sega CD to have been more successful then, too...maybe a 'quality control' so crap couldn't flood it? Kind of like how games got the 'Official Nintendo Seal of Quality' or something? I think it's possible that, with Nintendo the only other competitor, Sega might not feel like they've got to upstage anyone and have that key lower price for the Saturn.

Price and timing. Release it a little later for a hundred bucks less and also re-release the Genesis as a Genesis-CD combo (like the TurboGrafx-Duo) and that should help.

It could also be upgraded to match the SNES colour palette (as was rumoured, before launch OTL).

Maybe with the new Sonic game as a pack-in, or whatever.

You're stuck with the horrible FMV games regardless—the CD's space was begging to be filled up and that's how Sega wanted to use it.

Nevermore said:
I did notice that Sega made all of their own sports games for the Dreamcast...but I guess the more prominent question is what could keep EA, an important third party developer, on board? A more successful Saturn (which we presume anyway)?

Pretty much. Not getting screwed over with 32X and early Saturn helps a lot.

Nevermore said:
This is also true too, so maybe it will be the 3DO. Panasonic filling the Sony void is rather interesting, but I'm not too sure how well it'll fill out for them. They might have some problems Sony didn't in OTL, and it might be hard to do a format war against Sony with a juggernaut like Nintendo backing Sony every step of the way. This brings the concept of a family-oriented entertainment into the mainstream, something that could seriously hurt Panasonic if they're not too careful. The notion of bringing home computers to the present day and still in is very interesting, and certain things will be needed to be looked at. If anything, I view the M2 probably filling a gap similar to the Xbox's; might have flunked if it weren't for some killer app (analogous to Halo: Combat Evolved, or whatever comes close).

If Panasonic can grab somebody big (Squaresoft, perhaps, as Enix always puts DragonQuest on whatever is the most popular console) that's enough for Japan, at least and the EA sports support—perhaps earlier/better than for Nintendo and Sega—could support them in North America.

Nevermore said:
I did hear that the Japanese particularly liked how NEC did things. Part of it may have been, as you suggest, that greater freedom to do whatever they wanted without supporting a draconian expectation system set by a higher company, or that's just how the Japanese are: independent and all that. Might we see an earlier death of the PC-FX if the Sega CD and Nintendo PlayStation do better?

One reason was that bigger companies backed the PC-Engine in Japan (Konami) but didn't elsewhere because of Nintendo… also NEC allowed, or didn't interfere with "adult games", and the CD add-on actually had some great games (Ys Books I and II, for instance).

[1] PowerVR was the better chip at the time because it did something called "tiling" which was a different way to render on-screen graphics. In the Dreamcast era it was also a better way. However the way used by 3dfx/Nvida/ATI scaled better, and was easier to develop for.

Interestingly PowerVR is now a leading handheld graphics chipset and is rumoured to be included in the next Nintendo handheld.

Nevermore · Jul 21, 2008

Electric Monk said:
I should note that my eventual third attempt at a modern history timeline will include video game stuff. (The first died because I wasn't happy, the second foundered on the issue of Hong Kong.)

Just saying that some of my stuff comes from working it out for my own use.

Hm...thanks for sharing! I'm not sure how much time I'll have in the next few upcoming days, but I'll be sure to try to check out your TLs at some point in the future. They seem extremely interesting, especially the one where you hypothesize on the possible success of the Apple Newton PDA. A Japan where the 'bubble' never popped? That'll be extremely fun to read as well...

Electric Monk said:
It probably does have to be pricing. However the Sega CD and Nintendo Playstation are on the market, and unlike OTL it's clear that their next-gen consoles are a late 1995 or 1996 approach.

I was about to say, I think this would seriously help the 3DO, one with ane especially reduced prce too, as this gives them an entire year ahead of their competitors. I imagine the release order then, going something like this: 3DO ---> Sega Saturn (1996) ---> Nintendo (or should it be Ultra?) 64 (late 1996, as it did in OTL).

Electric Monk said:
Delay the 3DO a year and you cut a couple hundred bucks off the price and have a stronger game line-up because with the Atari Jaguar failure you're the only game in town—particularly and especially Western PC developers who never really made it to the console space until the Xbox.

Heck, after Atari sucks out loud for a year you can get ports of their good games as launch titles for the 3DO.

The migration of several Western developers flocking to the 3DO, plus a smarter Trip Hawkins, looks very attractive to the west from the business standpoint, I'd think. With the failure of the Atari Jaguar, might they try to test out first party stuff to get into the software-only business? Despite the fact they just failed with their own console, that helps add a strong brand name to the 3DO. This also helps make it more slightly identifiable and mainstream if a big company like that puts their chips down for Panasonic. The beginning of their aid of western developers then?

Electric Monk said:
As with the Dreamcast (Sega of America wanted the 3dfx graphics chip—either the Voodoo2 or the Banshee—Sega of Japan wanted and went with the NEC PowerVR graphics chip[1]) I imagine it's a fight.

Hitachi, at the time and until around the Dreamcast OTL, is on the ball CPU wise. They match or beat the MIPS, ARM, PowerPC, whatever in the price/power envelope of a game console.

Given that they're also a Japanese company—a logical choice.

Is there any way we can try to reconcile the differences between Sega of America and Sega of Japan on their choices for graphical chips? If we imagine that Sega of America will eventually nearly take over most of the business for the collective company, then it's no contest, but I'd like to try to get them to be equal partners, at least in some way.

So keep Hitachi for the Dreamcast whenever it gets here, right? If the Dreamcast of OTL is any example, than it might be wise on my part to do so. Perhaps Hitachi can be used to help further that bridge between the west and east over Sega's future, or at least be a stepping stone?

Electric Monk said:
However the N64 Silicon Graphics chipset was amazing. Just flat-out excellent, hampered by no sound chip (i.e. a single audio stream used 1% of the signal processing half of the graphics chip capacity…*which was a very large hit) and no texture cache, and of course the super-compressed everything required by cartridges.

(Technically the N64 was capable of great sound, if you sacrificed graphics performance and/or CPU performance.)

I'd imagine one of the biggest upsets, despite textures and such, will be load times for the new N64-PS1 hybrid. As cartridges had lower ones, and Nintendo is abandoning them in this ATL, it might be a very real problem they'll have to take on for early games, and maybe through the console's entire life cycle. But with whatever chip Nintendo and Sony chooses, I'd imagine it might have better sound than it did in OTL, though I'm not sure exactly the limits of what that could be. Ideas?

Electric Monk said:
A third, and perhaps more interesting, however: NEC manufactured the Silicon Graphics/MIPS designed processor in the N64. Perhaps Nintendo goes with Hitachi (or an American company) and Sega does a full-on partnership with NEC.

The Engine-FX, then, is simply an NEC branded Sega Saturn sold only in Japan? Or heck, maybe Sega flat out pulls out of Japan (always their least successful market, the OTL Saturn partially excepted) and lets NEC run that side of things while Sega concetrates on Europe and Japan.

The former is a very interesting proposition...though I'd imagine it could be quite difficult. Despite the fact Nintendo and Sony have shaken their hands in friendship, it would all honestly depend on how willing Nintendo is to ally with another big name company, I'd think, Japanese or American. This could, in theory hamper it a bit. As for Sega, I'd think that, as they haven't teamed up with Microsoft yet, it's possible they will work with NEC, especially after seeing what the company and their consoles can do.

I think maybe it would be ok to let them keep something in Japan; after all, if the Sega Saturn did well in OTL, just imagine how this better planned one will go. With this in stone, Sega might not have future problems of attempting to reach out to Japanese audiences, as the Saturn's name will be held in higher regard. I think it possible that Sega may move her definitive headquarters over to some western area though, there at least I think we agree.

Electric Monk said:
They lose software royalties on released-in-Japan games, but they would also probably get exclusive first-publish-elsewhere rights on all the NEC published games.

It's a weird deal, but a Sega where Sega of America is calling the shots might go for it.

Actually, if Sega is eventually going to adopt an Xbox Live-like service somewhere down the line, this could go very well for her for downloadable content for games, no? Not to mention all of the classics we presume this better Saturn will have.

If a current Microsoft-like Sega will help them along (just like a Sony-backed Nintendo will aid them with), why not, right? After all, what if?

Electric Monk said:
The reason it was so weird was because it was the first analogue stick controller in modern times and Nintendo wanted to keep their options open. However one could make it less odd. Take out the middle prong, move the analogue stick above the d-pad on the left, and shorten the width.

Think, uh, the VirtualBoy controller crossed with the N64 controller.

More lead time might also lead to the default Saturn controller having an analogue stick like their 3D controller.

Actually, despite it being hypothetical, that's actually quite a nice idea for a controller concept. I'd think that they could also be the first to introduce double left and right buttons in the back, something Sony historically did in OTL, and Sega may have to catch up with this (or at least it be a defining factor of Nintendo now). Sega could probably just find other ways to make games that would otherwise utilize both and assign them creatively to something else. I'd imagine they both might try for something slimmer than in OTL though, if just to make them a bit more aesthetically presentable.

As for the better Saturn controller, maybe they just keep the 3D controller? After all, if the console is going to be completely 3D, it all works out well.

Electric Monk said:
Price and timing. Release it a little later for a hundred bucks less and also re-release the Genesis as a Genesis-CD combo (like the TurboGrafx-Duo) and that should help.

It could also be upgraded to match the SNES colour palette (as was rumoured, before launch OTL).

Maybe with the new Sonic game as a pack-in, or whatever.

Heh, maybe even call it the 'Sega Neptune'?

I do like the idea of Sega making both a Genesis+CD console; maybe even discontinuing the regular Genesis and CD for this idea so as to cut down on production costs? I'd imagine it'd be better as you could pick and choose what you'd want to do with it without having to get an add-on if you wanted to do CD-based games. And an SNES color palette might make it appealing to nominally Nintendo based gamers too.

As for a new Sonic game...maybe hold off on Sonic CD and release it for this new combo? That would help it even more, as Sonic CD is heralded one of the best 2D Sonic games of the series.

You're stuck with the horrible FMV games regardless—the CD's space was begging to be filled up and that's how Sega wanted to use it.

Electric Monk said:
If Panasonic can grab somebody big (Squaresoft, perhaps, as Enix always puts DragonQuest on whatever is the most popular console) that's enough for Japan, at least and the EA sports support—perhaps earlier/better than for Nintendo and Sega—could support them in North America.

Actually, if Panasonic can manage to grab either Squaresoft or Enix, that could have some interesting butterflies, especially if the other company chooses to solely support another console. Might the Square-Enix deal never come to pass, perhaps? It doesn't really affect anything much, but it's still interesting to think about, as a bit of a byproduct of this ATL. Not sure who to give them yet, but I'll definitely take this into consideration. I think EA might do best to just play both Nintendo and Sega: neither gets hurt by lack of quality sports games and EA gets royalties from sales for both consoles. Everybody wins.

Electric Monk said:
One reason was that bigger companies backed the PC-Engine in Japan (Konami) but didn't elsewhere because of Nintendo… also NEC allowed, or didn't interfere with "adult games", and the CD add-on actually had some great games (Ys Books I and II, for instance).

Well, if Sega begins to back the PC-Engine (or at least NEC) in Japan, perhaps some of those companies will lend Sega a hand and start looking to her for possible partnerships? I'd imagine that this could bring some much needed third party support Sega's way, and it doesn't hurt Nintendo too bad elsewhere. Creates some interesting butterflies in the future, such as who does Hideo Kojima decide to go for when putting out Metal Gear Solid and the like.