Swedish empire taking another turn?

Darkaiz

Hi, first of all I would like to say hello to everyone since I'm new here, and express my joy that a site like this exists XD

Now then, on to the question...
Does anyone think it would have been possible for the Swedish empire to survive? Or at least live longe than it did?

I was thinking among the lines that either queen Christina (Queen between 1632 -1654 with the official title of King) didn't spend all that money that she did (which put the empire near bancrupcy)

Or maybe that Charles X didn't behave the way he did (war on Poland) and so on

And after that maybe Chalres XII could have attacked Russia instantly after the first battle of Narva in 1700

(Historians say that If Sweden had retaliated immediatly instead of turning on Poland and so on, then Russia could actually have been defeated since their army was in such a horrible state at that time)

So what do u think?
Possible yes / no? :p
 

Susano

Banned
Oh, the Russian Army was allright. However, due to the distances involved it couldnt all be mobilsied at once, and the Swedish Army at the time was probably the quality-wise best at the time, so, yes, if Charles X had gone straight against Russia he could have forced a favourable peace.

Of course, the problem with that is that it would more or less require a completly different Charles. IOTL, Charles saw everything in terms of honour and slights to honour, and he saw the attack on him as a personal affront, hence he first went out of his way to punish August the Strong, King of Poland and Elector of Saxony. Which allowed Russia to rally its troops. So, you need a Charles X that thing smore pragmatically, basically, you need a totally different personality. So, probably, a PoD at Charles birth is needed.

Of course, I still dont think this will let Sweden remain a Great Power. It wont come crushing and burning down, maybe, but its population and economical base is still, even including Finland and the Baltic territories, too small to remain a great power. So instead of crashing down, itll slowly fade away as great power, most likely.
 

Darkaiz

thanks for your comment. I appreciate it.
Yeah I knew he was a "guy of honour" and he loved battle :p
Too bad he had to pick a fight with everyone in his fists reach lol

The Swedish Empire had a population of ca 2.500 000 around 1700 (from what I've read in the history books), so yeah it was probably too small to remain as a super-power... but it's still remarkable how far they got ^^

(let's pray for no more wars in europe ey? or in any other part of the world either for that matter)
 

Faeelin

Banned
Wasn't a proposal booted about for a Prusso-Swedish Union? Gustav Vasa's daughter marrying the Prussian ruler?
 

Darkaiz

I think so. Wonder what would have happened then...
Prussian-Swedish Empire? Swessia? Prusden? XD
 
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Darkaiz

Maybe an all-out European war against a Sweden-Prussian Empire?

Something like France and their buddies don't like Sweden-Prussia so they attack or the other way around
 
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Susano

Banned
France? Hell, no. Sweden was Frances safest ally, after all, what with both being the guarantee powers of the Westphalian treaty. Of course, with Brandenburg now a French ally... that does not bode well for Germany. Even before Frederick II established the Prussian military legacy, Brandneburg played quite an important part in the wars against France after all...
 

Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy

Banned
Susano said:
Of course, I still dont think this will let Sweden remain a Great Power. It wont come crushing and burning down, maybe, but its population and economical base is still, even including Finland and the Baltic territories, too small to remain a great power. So instead of crashing down, itll slowly fade away as great power, most likely.
Click to expand...

I think they could have remained the dominant power in northern Europe to this day. Consider their regional rivals.
 

Matthais Corvinus

Faeelin said:
Wasn't a proposal booted about for a Prusso-Swedish Union? Gustav Vasa's daughter marrying the Prussian ruler?
Click to expand...

Christina was actually suppose to marry the next Prussian elector, who was THE "Great Elector" whose name escapes me at the moment. You avoid King Gustav's death in 1634 (which creates MASSIVE butterflies for the 30 Years' War) and unite Sweden and Prussia, then you have the Prussian tradition of eastern expansionism, plus Swedish possessions and interests in the East, added into all that is the Great Elector military reforms that he enacted OTL (which in this TL would probably be the introduction of Swedish military reforms into Brandenburg-Prussia).

The problem that you have is that if you unite Brandenburg-Prussia and Sweden you end up dividing Swedish attention even worse than OTL, with attention split between the HRE and the Baltic coast line. Now one could argue that since Gustav survives, and the union with Brandenburg achieved, Sweden has gained control of alot of the Baltic seacoast, and put itself in a position to expand on that control. That is the cash cow that Sweden needs to maintain itself as a major power- control of Baltic trade routes.

When *Westphalia happens, and I don't know when that will be or what it will look like, Sweden-Bradenburg-Prussia won't be looking for territory in the west (as Brandenburg did OTL), but in the east. This new polity will be a valued French ally, seen as a counterweight to Hapsburg ambition in Germany.

Has a timeline ever been done?
 

pompejus

Matthais Corvinus said:
When *Westphalia happens, and I don't know when that will be or what it will look like, Sweden-Bradenburg-Prussia won't be looking for territory in the west (as Brandenburg did OTL), but in the east. This new polity will be a valued French ally, seen as a counterweight to Hapsburg ambition in Germany.
Click to expand...

Didn't Prussia already have territories in the west at that time? the Duchy of Cleves and the county of Mark? Wouldn't those already be good enough reasons to focus some attention to the west?
 

Matthais Corvinus

pompejus said:
Didn't Prussia already have territories in the west at that time? the Duchy of Cleves and the county of Mark? Wouldn't those already be good enough reasons to focus some attention to the west?
Click to expand...

They had Cleves-Mark and Ravensberg, but I believe they got more substantial gains at Westphalia, as part of the French attempt to use Brandenburg-Prussia as a counter-weight to Austria.
 

Susano

Banned
Not quite. The question of the Cleves inheritance was settled at Westphalia, which became split between Brandneburg and Palatinate-Neuburg (which got Berg and Jülich), with the third claimant, Saxony, getting zilk (but it included the titles in its titulatory all the way to the end of the HREGN). Dont ask me how those claims worked, but in any case, Cleves, Mark, Ravensburg were all part of the Cleves inheritance, and that was all territories in the west Brandenburg (to say Prussia at that time is anachronistic) had at the time.

And please, what "tradition of Prussian eastern expansion"? No, really, what tradition? There was none. Now, if you meant western expansion, there was no concerted effort at that, either. It was all opportunity, and that was normal in the early modenr age. States (or rather, dynasties) acquired claims by good marriages or imperial fiat or whatever, and then acted on them. Funnily enough, what Brandenburg and later Prussia really wanted, where they DID make concerted efforts to gain it, was Saxony, but they never did gain it (and never had any claim to it, either). As it was - the Cleves inheritance, the Orange inheritance and East Frisia, that was as said all opportunity, no great plan for an expansion westwards.

I dont really see a split of focus, either. With Brandenburg and Sweden united, youll also have Pommern united, and have Prussia added to the Baltic Sea encompassing shoreline. Sweden-Brandenburg's first aim would of course be to get Prussia independnat (instead of it being a Polish fief), something Brandenburg achieved alone IOTL (and even against the Swedes), so they will manage that. And then it will probably set out to win control of the remaining Baltic coastline - Royal Prussia, Mecklenburg, Holstein...
 

Darkaiz

at that time (if, for say Sweden unites with Prussia) How would they react to Russia? Or more precisely; How would Russia react to this new union? And what would Poland say?
The Russian Empire sought to have the areas of Estonia and so on because they wanted those coastal lines as a defence against Sweden (and any other possible enemy to attack from there)

At least that's what I've heard. I could be wrong (wouldn't surprise me if I am).

Polan was quite big during the 17th century as well right?
(Dunno if the Polish commonwealth was bigger in the 16th century... think so... long time since I read about it)

alotta questions here ._.
 
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