AH challenge: seat of the Papacy remains in Avignon

[Hendryk]

It's a tough challenge considering the troubled history of the Papacy in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. Not only do you have to make the popes stay in Avignon, but you have to make the Avignon seat more legitimate than any contending seat in Rome.

But beyond the minutiae of the history of internecine divisions of Catholicism, it's the long-term consequences I'm interested in.

[Thande]

What would be interesting is if you could have the antipopes of Avignon persisting until the Reformation. Then maybe instead of multitudinous Protestant churches, you could have the King of France and the Antipope of Avignon favour Luther's reforms (perhaps sincerely, perhaps for political reasons), and end up with two Catholic churches.

Although to get the same degree of Protestant conversion by rulers of OTL, you would have to have this Avignon Catholic Church have at least a degree of Jansenist thinking (to be anachronistic) because the rulers partly embraced Protestantism because it gave them more freedom and let them seize some Church property.

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by Thande

What would be interesting is if you could have the antipopes of Avignon persisting until the Reformation. Then maybe instead of multitudinous Protestant churches, you could have the King of France and the Antipope of Avignon favour Luther's reforms (perhaps sincerely, perhaps for political reasons), and end up with two Catholic churches.

Good idea. Sounds like a TL, though I wouldn't be the one to write it, for lack of requisite expertise on the period in question.

Originally Posted by Thande

Although to get the same degree of Protestant conversion by rulers of OTL, you would have to have this Avignon Catholic Church have at least a degree of Jansenist thinking (to be anachronistic) because the rulers partly embraced Protestantism because it gave them more freedom and let them seize some Church property.

Well, it wouldn't be difficult to blend the teachings of Thomas Aquinas with a kind of proto-Gallicanism arguing that on temporal matters, the Church is subject to secular authority. This, in turn, could give the Avignon-based Catholic Church a degree of local flexibility that the one in Rome would lack, and which would enable it to deal constructively with such figures as Jan Hus, further channeling simmering religious resentment for its profit.

[Susano]

Thandes scenario is possible, but only under some conditions, Id say. Part of what made the reformation so attractive is that many people were quite fed up to be ruled inr eligiou smatter by a so far away authority. If they can make a go for it, the various monarchs will try to become religiously independant, as in the OTL reformation. To make them accept the religious primacy (even if it is a lighter one) of another Pope, something else must happen. Maybe Protestantism gets fought so hard, and comes ins uch dire straits that they need no other way than to form an united front, or somesuch...

[Alamo]

A meteorite, a large one, hits Rome and destroys it. That should take care that problem rather quickly.

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by Alamo

A meteorite, a large one, hits Rome and destroys it. That should take care that problem rather quickly.

I'd rather hypothetical meteorites be left out of the equation. This kind of counterfactual shortcut makes for sloppy AH, and given the odds, may belong in ASB.

I'd prefer to see more reflexion on Thande's idea, it has interesting potential. One wonder how early modern Europe may look like with two competing Catholic churches, one going for centralization and the other courting support by granting more power to secular rulers. This latter branch of Catholicism may end up looking rather like Eastern Orthodoxy in its organizational structure.

[Matthais Corvinus]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

I'd rather hypothetical meteorites be left out of the equation. This kind of counterfactual shortcut makes for sloppy AH, and given the odds, may belong in ASB.

I'd prefer to see more reflexion on Thande's idea, it has interesting potential. One wonder how early modern Europe may look like with two competing Catholic churches, one going for centralization and the other courting support by granting more power to secular rulers. This latter branch of Catholicism may end up looking rather like Eastern Orthodoxy in its organizational structure.

Oh I don't know. Italy might end up as the seat of the more forward thinking branch of the Catholic Church. The Italian Renaissance produced quite a few thinkers who were trying to bring together various Greek philosophies with Catholic theology. The influence of the Renaissance might end up being felt in Catholic theology in addition to European culture, and produce a Church that is much more willing to work with secular rulers.

Indeed, if the Avignon Church succeeds in maintaining itself in France, then something like Borga family could be more successful in Italy. I would think that Avignon would be largely a tool of French diplomacy, which means expansionism, whereas the Italian Church would be much more interested in keeping rulers under the banner of Rome. In fact, when the Church's own local interests vis a vis Italy are added into the equation I can see Rome ending up as the choice of most Europe simply because it is anti-French. So Italy gives *Charles V (or whichever Hapsburg is HRE when Lutherism or its parallel in ATL rises up) enough leeway to be able to maintain German religious unity- in the name of keeping the anti-French alliance (which bears a striking resemblance to the kingdoms in communion with Rome) together.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

One of the problems is that the Pope is Bishop of Rome. It's hard to be THE Bishop of Rome if a different Bishop claiming the title is actually IN Rome.

To get a longer/more respectable Avignon papacy, we might have to have Rome occupied by a non-RC power, mostly likely Byzantium or some Moslem power.

In such a case, the puppet 'Bishop of Rome' could clearly be a puppet, allowing other people to claim the title of 'true Bishop of Rome'. This would also allow multiple 'popes' all claiming that title.