A Little Worse for Wear: A Tale of WWIII

[Jaydoh]

The premise is this: a P.O.D. in the 1920s leads to a rather troublesome (but not ultimately apocalyptic) Third World War. Rather than write this in timeline format, or even in simple prose, this is going to be presented, little by little, in the form of speeches, essays, newspapers, etc. I will try to write this in a way that will keep you guessing about both what happened in the war itself and how the nations of the world ended up at each others' throats in the first place. I expect blatant speculation, and I hope no one correctly guesses what happened right away.

Here's the first installment:


Lecture by Dustin McMurray, Professor of Modern History at the University of Phoenix, 7 May 2025

"The Third World War and its Causes, Course, and Consequences"

In just a year's time, those born after the terrors of the Third World War will enter adulthood. These young men and women will not have experienced firsthand that which their parents and grandparents have. They will not have heard the first news reports of the fall of Vera Cruz. They will not have watched embedded journalists issue their reports of the landings on Formosa. They will not have been saddened every time another country entered the fray, every time a new theater of war opened up, every time thousands of more lives somewhere in the world were committed to the fight that never seemed to end. They will not have constantly felt deep down inside as if their nation was on the wrong side of the conflict. They will not have been sickened and horrified by the actions of their enemies, of their allies, and of their own country. They will never have the opportunity to personally see the White House, the Statue of Liberty, the Golden Gate Bridge, Christ the Redeemer, Big Ben, the Eiffel Tower, the Kremlin, the Hagia Sophia, or countless other great structures which were snuffed out by the war…

[stevep]

Jaydoh

Interesting and intriging. Too little to say yet what caused it and who's on what side but the old cat killer is twitching a bit. Presume your being a bit sarcastic saying WWIII was "rather troublesome" given what's been lost. Notice the list of lost symbols, although not complete, show a bias toward the Americas and Europe but guessing that not significant, or possibly a bias of Mr/Pr McMurray.

Steve

[Jaydoh]

Originally Posted by stevep

Jaydoh

Interesting and intriging. Too little to say yet what caused it and who's on what side but the old cat killer is twitching a bit. Presume your being a bit sarcastic saying WWIII was "rather troublesome" given what's been lost. Notice the list of lost symbols, although not complete, show a bias toward the Americas and Europe but guessing that not significant, or possibly a bias of Mr/Pr McMurray.

Steve

Well, it was a bit sarcastic, but also, compared to stuff I've seen where a Third World War leads to the total collapse of civilization, this Earth practically gets off easy. I don't think a single country collapses as a result of nuclear attack, but they do crumble in the wake of good ol' fashioned invasion. The Western focus is because the lecture is being given in an American university to, for the most part, American students, so those symbols lost would be those most readily identifiable to them. If you pay close attention to the list, you'll find that there's one major city* that has a symbol that you'd think would be mentioned in this list but isn't. There's a reason for that, and I think that might be revealed later. The next installment (an essay excerpt) will be posted later tonight.

*Hint: it's in Europe

[LordInsane]

Originally Posted by Jaydoh

If you pay close attention to the list, you'll find that there's one major city* that has a symbol that you'd think would be mentioned in this list but isn't. There's a reason for that, and I think that might be revealed later. The next installment (an essay excerpt) will be posted later tonight.

*Hint: it's in Europe

Berlin?
Brandenburger Tor, the Reichstag Building...

[Jaydoh]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

Berlin?
Brandenburger Tor, the Reichstag Building...

Think further south. Another hint: this city probably had more influence than any other (except possibly Athens) on the shape of western civilization.

This next installment (short, but it gets the point across) shows why, in this TL, the era between WWII and WWIII would not be dubbed the Cold War, as the only thing cold about the era was the huge amount of corpses it left in its wake


Essay by Ryan Witson, Cadet at the Virginia Military Institute, 2012

"The Use of Nuclear Devices in the Third World War"

The world had seen its fair share of nuclear attacks before the Third World War broke out. There had been one in the First Middle Eastern War, one in the First Indonesian Conflict, six in the Third Middle Eastern War/Fifth Ibero-Communist Conflict, two in the Sixth Ibero-Communist Conflict, one in the Second Indonesian Conflict, one in the Great Uprising, and one in the Fourth Middle Eastern War*…


*notice how WWII is not mentioned in the list

[LordInsane]

Ah. Rome, then. I though of that city, too. One could guess that the Vatican is the reason why Rome survived, altough I guess I'll have to wait to find out...

A conflict called simply 'the Great Uprising'? Uh-oh.

[karl2025]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

Ah. Rome, then. I though of that city, too. One could guess that the Vatican is the reason why Rome survived, altough I guess I'll have to wait to find out...

A conflict called simply 'the Great Uprising'? Uh-oh.

The Great Uprising sounds like an Indian Revolt, or that's what sprang to my mind anyway. It looks like it was a religious war, considering how many nukes were used in Muslim nations between the wars.

We also know the war started in 2007. And that the nuclear targets that were mentioned were mostly Christian nations. It's odd that Rome would survive a nuclear religious war though, so maybe that's not it.

[Jaydoh]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

Ah. Rome, then. I though of that city, too. One could guess that the Vatican is the reason why Rome survived, altough I guess I'll have to wait to find out...

A conflict called simply 'the Great Uprising'? Uh-oh.

Hurray! The first false assumption! The reason the Colosseum or Saint Peter's Basilica isn't in the list of destroyed symbols isn't because Rome wasn't nuked in WWIII, but because, even if Rome was nuked in the war (although it's possible not enough had been rebuilt to make it a worthwhile target), there would have been no Colosseum or Saint Peter's Basilica to nuke.

Also, 'the Great Uprising' isn't as ominous as it sounds; it's an event that's actually looked quite favorably upon by the U.S. and western Europe (well, not the nuke part, or the fact that it took years to accomplish its goals, but it was for a good cause).

Originally Posted by karl2025

The Great Uprising sounds like an Indian Revolt, or that's what sprang to my mind anyway. It looks like it was a religious war, considering how many nukes were used in Muslim nations between the wars.

We also know the war started in 2007. And that the nuclear targets that were mentioned were mostly Christian nations. It's odd that Rome would survive a nuclear religious war though, so maybe that's not it.

Nope, not in India. Those in India are fairly non-rebellious (due to the fact that the government keeps a very tight lid on dissent) and nobody wants to try anything stupid. Even if they succeeded, they'd just get invaded by a certain other country and have the old government reinstated.

Trust me, this isn't a religious war. If it were, the U.S. would definitely back the other side. The amount of nukes used in Muslim nations is a result of both the Middle East's and Indonesia's unfortunate position near nations whose views on religion are found to be distasteful to Islamic nations (read as: they have a good casus belli for invading oil-rich regions). The nuclear targets in Christian nations are, like I mentioned earlier, a result of a focus on what American students would be familiar with. The target list is by no means exhaustive, and the location of nuclear strikes is not concentrated in one area of the world.

I'm confused as to where this 'the war started in 2007' came from? No hints have yet been given as to the war's start date. The only information of the war's time frame I've given is: 'In just a year's time [one year after 2025], those born after the terrors of the Third World War will enter adulthood [age 18].' This means WWIII ended in 2008. The year WWIII started is still a secret (or at least it will be until update after next).

[LordInsane]

Originally Posted by Jaydoh

Hurray! The first false assumption! The reason the Colosseum or Saint Peter's Basilica isn't in the list of destroyed symbols isn't because Rome wasn't nuked in WWIII, but because, even if Rome was nuked in the war (although it's possible not enough had been rebuilt to make it a worthwhile target), there would have been no Colosseum or Saint Peter's Basilica to nuke.

Hm... major city, you say? To the south of Berlin, very influential on western civilisation, but it is not Rome, and not Athens, nor Paris... Vienna?
Madrid could be another possiblity...

[Kal'thzar]

Hm... major city, you say? To the south of Berlin, very influential on western civilisation, but it is not Rome, and not Athens, nor Paris... Vienna?
Madrid could be another possiblity...

Venice? (personally I back Vienna but heck put the thoughts out there)

Certainly I think Venice and Vienna are much more memorable than Madrid. Of course Italy is just full of cities with something remarkable about them, its almost irritating.

Fun games Jaydoh

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Kal'thzar

Venice? (personally I back Vienna but heck put the thoughts out there)

Certainly I think Venice and Vienna are much more memorable than Madrid. Of course Italy is just full of cities with something remarkable about them, its almost irritating.

Fun games Jaydoh

I think your mis-reading what Jaydoh said. I read it as Rome wasn't on the list and the Colusseum wasn't destroyed in WWIII because it sounded like it went boom in one of the earlier conflict. As such I would read Rome as the 'influential southern city not mentioned in the list of targets in the OP' but that's because it had been destroyed in an earlier conflict. Could be wrong of course.

Steve

[stevep]

Jaydoh

Intriguing and challenging. Some fascinating mind-games occurring. Dusting down a few of the old brain cells and trying to get them working again.

As I said above I'm reading it as Rome is the city missing from the list and it sounds like that's because it was destroyed earlier.

On the Great Uprising, given your hint about it being favoured by the western powers, I'm suspecting the fall of a major communist state, probably Russia but perhaps China or even India. [Although what you say about what sounds a pretty oppressive government in India sounds like that's unlikely].

I'm puzzled by the comment about the Indian government being restored by another state if it was overthrown. Given the size of India that is an impressive amount power someone is capable of. Makes me think that both India and either Russia or China are communists - or possibly the US? - Communist [or possibly fascist?] would explain the comment about the states who do a lot of nuking of Muslim states having a stance on religion that would be distasteful to Muslims. [Scratch the idea about the US going communist as that wouldn't fit with some of the other things].

Given the list of western cities with significant symbols mentioned Berlin is a marked omission, although that could just be a lack of a well know symbol.

The number of nukes used before the big one, I count 13, 6 of which were in a single enlarged conflict does suggest a definite lack of a nuclear taboo. Also intriguing is that there have been at least 6 Ibero-Communist conflicts, two of which have been nuclear. Presuming this refers to some conflict between Iberia [i.e. Spain=Portugal] and a communist force. Difficult to see the latter as a major communist power so wondering if N Africa or part of it has gone Communist. [Or possibly that's why Rome isn't there any more. Just had a thought. Could the POD in TTL be that Benito stays a socialist?]

Clutching a bit here one other, alternative, idea is that Ibero could refer to some Latin-American superbloc, which would allow for the repeated nuclear exchanges but that probably hints at a communist US. However I'm suspecting a series of Spanish-Italian conflicts are more likely.

Playing the shot-gun approach here but definitely some fascinating ideas bubbling up.

Steve

[Jaydoh]

Originally Posted by stevep

Jaydoh

Intriguing and challenging. Some fascinating mind-games occurring. Dusting down a few of the old brain cells and trying to get them working again.

As I said above I'm reading it as Rome is the city missing from the list and it sounds like that's because it was destroyed earlier.

On the Great Uprising, given your hint about it being favoured by the western powers, I'm suspecting the fall of a major communist state, probably Russia but perhaps China or even India. [Although what you say about what sounds a pretty oppressive government in India sounds like that's unlikely].

I'm puzzled by the comment about the Indian government being restored by another state if it was overthrown. Given the size of India that is an impressive amount power someone is capable of. Makes me think that both India and either Russia or China are communists - or possibly the US? - Communist [or possibly fascist?] would explain the comment about the states who do a lot of nuking of Muslim states having a stance on religion that would be distasteful to Muslims. [Scratch the idea about the US going communist as that wouldn't fit with some of the other things].

Given the list of western cities with significant symbols mentioned Berlin is a marked omission, although that could just be a lack of a well know symbol.

The number of nukes used before the big one, I count 13, 6 of which were in a single enlarged conflict does suggest a definite lack of a nuclear taboo. Also intriguing is that there have been at least 6 Ibero-Communist conflicts, two of which have been nuclear. Presuming this refers to some conflict between Iberia [i.e. Spain=Portugal] and a communist force. Difficult to see the latter as a major communist power so wondering if N Africa or part of it has gone Communist. [Or possibly that's why Rome isn't there any more. Just had a thought. Could the POD in TTL be that Benito stays a socialist?]

Clutching a bit here one other, alternative, idea is that Ibero could refer to some Latin-American superbloc, which would allow for the repeated nuclear exchanges but that probably hints at a communist US. However I'm suspecting a series of Spanish-Italian conflicts are more likely.

Playing the shot-gun approach here but definitely some fascinating ideas bubbling up.

Steve

You're right on the Rome thing. I guess I just didn't make it simple enough. I'll try to make it simpler: Rome is the city that's mysteriously missing from the list, as, chances are, the city would no longer be a worthwhile target by WWIII.

The Great Uprising isn't necessarily the collapse of a major power, just a heavy contributer to its eventual downfall a few years later. Also, while there were some large revolts within that major power, most of the uprising took place in its puppet states. Another interesting tidbit: the Great Uprising and the Fourth Middle Eastern War were contemporaneous (they happened at the same time, but not necessarily in unison).

You have to remember this about restoring an unpopular government in India: that country has a lot of densely packed urban areas, which means prime nuke targets for a country who doesn't give a [expletive] about the people and simply wants an aligned government in the region. India knows this, and really doesn't want an uprising to a) knock them out of power, b) get their country nuked, and c) become a lesser partner in what is currently a fairly equal alliance. Of course the same is true of the other nation (if its government fell India may decide to nuke it to kingdom come to put a favorable government back in place).

Berlin is not in the list because even I, the great nerd that I am, can't really think of a monument in Berlin off the top of my head, so I don't the college student of average intelligence (especially in a world where relations with Europe are just starting to warm up again, as you will see in the next update) would know one if they heard it.

The Third Middle Eastern War/Fifth Ibero-Communist Conflict had six nukes because three nuclear-capable nations (who developed the bomb in a joint project) tactically used them as part of a large offensive; when the opposing nations responded with three nukes of their own (one into each nation), they decided to just finish the war conventionally.

Yes, 'Ibero' means a united Spain and Portugal (or rather, a Spain that annexed Portugal by force). No, 'Ibero-Communist Conflict' does not mean that the conflict was between Iberia and some communists.

The U.S. is neither fascist nor communist, but it is noticeably further right-wing than OTL (at least until after WWIII). Benito was not a socialist. He goes along his historical path pretty much like OTL: make Italy fascist, ally with Hitler in WWII, get defeated by Allies. And yes, there will conflict between Spain (Iberia, technically) and Italy.

Rather than let you simply digest that, I'll also give you guys another update. This'll give you a taste of how Western culture (in the 2020s) tends to view the war:


Lecture by Dustin McMurray, Professor of Modern History at the University of Phoenix, 7 May 2025

"The Third World War and its Causes, Course, and Consequences"

…With the traditional witty cynicism that seems to be the trademark of modern youth, the Third World War has been often been referred to in popular culture as W.O.T.C.R.A.P., an abbreviation for "War of the Completely Ridiculous Allied Powers." Such an analysis is, in hind-sight, quite correct. Americans and Europeans alike look back at the time and wonder, "How could we ever have fought on the same side as them? What were we thinking?" This is because the war was ultimately an example of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Unfortunately, what the United States considered its worst enemy and what Europe considered their worst enemy happened to be the ones to throw the first punches at each other to start the war. The Western World was ripped in twain, and the U.S. and Europe glared at each other across the Atlantic, each hoping the other's ally of circumstance would be vanquished, but neither hoping that they'd actually be forced to come to blows against the other.

Despite the resistance against direct war, hatred grew nonetheless. Americans looked on with glee as Germans, Italians, Greeks, Serbs, and others were slain in the mountains of Anatolia. Those in Europe felt joy whenever hearing reports of enemy casualties in Thailand came in. It took almost a decade for détente to descend over the Western Hemisphere, but to the relief of all, it seems as if it will hold…

[Bobindelaware]

From a paper by undergraduate student Mark (*****) at Delaware State University, April 2114:

". . . when the conflict in Egypt between the government forces (minimal Islamist), Radical students, their poor allies (which included most of the population) and the Radical Islamic Fundamentalists (who numbered at most a few thousand) came to a head in November 2008, the West waited to see who would join the fray, who would stir up trouble elsewhere and who would eventually win. What turned out to be a surprise to virtually everyone was the situation at the University of Alexandria where a group of young muslims, who were fed up with the excesses of the Radicals, Government brutality and the indifference of the middle class. After attempting to deal with the major power groups - Government forces on one side and Radical Islamists on the other side - the students issued a call for a boycott of all violence, basing their call on the American Civil Rights movement of the middle of the last century. At Noon on November 22, chosen because of the anniversary of the death of John F. Kennedy, the students began a strike and sit-down protest against all violence. Singing the old Freedom Song, "We Shall Overcome," they caught the attention of CNN reporters in the area, and were promptly on world-wide TV. Within hours, many of the Urban Poor, students from other colleges and universities and colleges in Alexandria had gathered in several open areas, listening to speeches on Freedom, Non-Violence and resistance to Government and Radical islamist forces. By 1500 hours, government forces arrived on the scent, with the intent of stopping the protests. Within minutes, student leaders started the chant, "The Whole World's Watching! The Whole World's Watching!" until it was picked up by the estimated 300,000 in the different gatherings. Soon, many of the Police and soldiers were joining the protest and chanting along with the demonstrators. As the throngs marched from their different locations towards the University, a group of hard-core Government soldiers and a few radical Islamists launched about thirty RPGs into the crowd. Suddenly, the protest was not only real, but deadly. With CNN carrying the marches (and the subsequent carnage) live, other protests rose up in Cairo and other cities throughout Egypt. And all Hell broke loose. Egyptian military forces and Security Police were ordered to stop the protests, the Radical Islamists playing on both sides and Egypt held its collective breath. Just after 1945 hours, an air strike called by the head of the Air Force dropped napalm on the University, killing over 20,000 and sparking major outcry from around the world. CNN, Reuters, BBC and other news agencies,as well as many embassies attempted to contact Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, but no answer was forthcoming. Just after midnight a spokesman made the following announcement: "Acting President Hussein Dama has taken over control of the government to stop the arrogant stupidity of these student hooligans and their Fundamentalist allies. Former President Mubarak is under arrest and will be tried for Treason. All student leaders will be captured and summarily executed."

The response was almost immediate: Students attacked government sites, overwhelming the few remaining "loyalist" forces, frequently with the help of many of the bureaucrats who worked in those buildings. By dawn November 23, The students had cornered the "acting President" and a few supporters in a bunker near Cairo airport. A quick but effective ceasefire was negotiated by Israeli American and Russian diplomats and Dama was taken into custody by a tri-partite force of Isrraeli, American and Russian Embassy Guards and taken to Malta in UN custody. During this time it was discovered that President Mubarak had been executed by Dama himself . . . "

Whatcha think of THAT?

Bobbo

[gilbertk1993]

uh...wats this got to do w/ the tl?

[Jaydoh]

Bobindelaware - Um...err...uh...the thing is, I have the whole thing plotted out already. It's more of a 'guess what happened based off of the clues I give you' sort of thing not a 'let's construct a scenario together' thing. Essentially, your post doesn't fit with what I have mapped out for what happened. For example, there hasn't been an independent Egypt since 1988, the government who does rule Egypt is very much Islamic fundamentalist, the war ended before November 2008 (although you may have intended this to be an event that takes places after WWIII), chances are the people in Egypt would be content with their government after the war (even with the nuclear exchange), post WWIII there are no more Israeli diplomats or armed forces, the chances for American and Russian joint cooperation against whomever rules Egypt depends on how fast post-nuclear exchange alliances shift, and I highly doubt this TL would have any international body similar to the U.N. Sorry I can't use your post, as it's not canon, but at least I could use it to reveal more details about the WfW (Worse for Wear) universe.

[Bobindelaware]

Jaydoh, not a problem! I just couldn't stop myself when I got started. And I AM sorry if I "upset any applecarts," so to speak, but it WAS fun!

And I was looking (somewhat facetiously!) at the Alexandria Incident as the start of A Great Uprising, not THE Great Uprising.

Maybe I will expand on the theme in a later Time Line?

Again, sorry & thanks for the input!

I'll get it right eventually!

Bobbo

[AuroraBorealis]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

Berlin?
Brandenburger Tor, the Reichstag Building...

He's speaking of the Vatican in Rome

[LordInsane]

Originally Posted by AuroraBorealis

He's speaking of the Vatican in Rome

Look at the order of posts again, mayhap?

[Jaydoh]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

Look at the order of posts again, mayhap?

*Sigh* When I set out to make this a mind game of sorts I didn't think I'd get people this confused. Anywhose, for those who may still be confused: read all of my posts. Each one contains hints, clarifications, corrections, and general spoilers/foreshadowing.

Oh, and Bobindelaware (or I guess just Bobbo), what do you mean by "expand on the theme in a later Time Line?" Do you mean write some other time line of your own? Or did you mean contribute to this TL somewhere down the line, which I appreciate, but I don't think it'll work, given this project's setup. Anyway, I guess I can be glad I'm inspiring others' creativity.


Come on people, I want more blatant speculation. Don't be afraid to take a shot in the dark. Worst case scenario is I'll correct you with some more cryptic details. If I get enough comments later tonight*, I'll post the next update in only a few hours, as opposed to tomorrow afternoon* as I'd originally planned (*in U.S. Central Time, for those non-Americans who are reading this). Do we have a deal?