King of England Doesn't Become Lord of Ireland

[MerryPrankster]

According to some stuff I've read about Irish history, the Lordship of Ireland was assigned to John Lackland, younger brother of Richard the Lion-Hearted, because he didn't have land anywhere else. However, when he became King of England, he took the title of Lord of Ireland with him and thus the King of England was the Lord of Ireland as well.

WI things worked in such a way (the title given to someone else, John never becoming King, etc) so that the King of England and Lord of Ireland are not the same person? I imagine the Lord of Ireland would be a feudal lord subordinate to the King of England.

Now what? Could some ambitious Lord of Ireland use it as a base to try to seize the Crown? It seems like something that might happen, assuming said Lord could get the lesser nobles and Irish chiefs to cooperate. Or might we end up with something similar to Brazil, where the Lord of Ireland decides to sever all ties with his overlord and become King of Ireland?

What do y'all think?

[Grey Wolf]

Hmmm, you have to manage the interplay with the Irish kings, the last of whom held the title in the late 15th or early 16th century. I've never read enough on this but I know its there.

Grey Wolf

[Rick Robinson]

Hmmm. One thing: so far as I can tell, the Irish "troubles" really only began in the reign of Good Queen Bess, who was pretty much Bad Queen Bess so far as Ireland was concerned. (In fairness to her she faced the religious problem and a Spanish threat.)

But till then the English lordship in Ireland seems to have been pretty nominal, almost confined to the English Pale around Dublin. The Norman earls quickly became culturally Irish - as witness the fact that we now think of Fitz- (Norman French for "son of") as an Irish name-form.

To get a major POD in Irish history before the 16th century, I think you need a Lord/Duke/King of Ireland who finds a way to introduce an effective administration and military system, and harness its resources to his own purposes, creating in effect an Irish state or sub-state.

I don't know much about medieval Irish society, or what this would have required. The image of Ireland was as more or less ungovernable till Cromwell put his boot down on it.

-- Rick --