WI the Catholic Church hadn't adopted the Trinity?

bard32 · May 26, 2008

WI the Catholic Church hadn't adopted the Trinity? There was a small minority
of bishops at the Council of Nicaea, who believed that the Trinity was anti-
Christian. They wanted to keep God as one being. They were known as Unitarians. Unfortunately, the majority of Catholic bishops, at the urging of Constantine the Great, went with the Trinitarians.

Japhy · May 26, 2008

whats so bad about the Trinity?

bard32 · May 26, 2008

A Rock And An Island said:
whats so bad about the Trinity?

Nothing. I was just saying that some Catholic bishops at Niceaea believed that
it was anti-Christian and wanted to treat God as one being. These bishops were known as Unitarians because they wanted a single God instead of one
that was in thirds.

Theodoric · May 26, 2008

Wasn't the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Chism caused by their views of the Trinity? This might prevent that, or change its nature.

Apart from that, nothing really changes all that much, I'd think. Well, for Christians it might, ut on a world-wide scale, it would have the same impact as Old Calendrists rling the Eastern Orthodox church.

bard32 · May 26, 2008

Theodoric said:
Wasn't the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Chism caused by their views of the Trinity? This might prevent that, or change its nature.

Apart from that, nothing really changes all that much, I'd think. Well, for Christians it might, ut on a world-wide scale, it would have the same impact as Old Calendrists rling the Eastern Orthodox church.

I think it was, yes. Among other things, including the Iconoclastic Controversy.
My point about the Trinity was that a handful bishops didn't want the Trinity
because they thought of God as being indivisible.

Zajir · May 26, 2008

No the schism was caused be the filioque controversy,the Latin belief in Purgatory and papal supremacy.

The Iconoclast controversy was two centuries earlier and was the result of Muslim influence in the Roman Empire.
Also the anti-trinitarians were at Nicea were called Arians,who believed that Christ was a crated creature.
The Unitarians came later at the Protestant Reform.

bard32 · May 26, 2008

Zajir said:
No the schism was caused be the filioque controversy,the Latin belief in Purgatory and papal supremacy.

The Iconoclast controversy was two centuries earlier and was the result of Muslim influence in the Roman Empire.
Also the anti-trinitarians were at Nicea were called Arians,who believed that Christ was a crated creature.
The Unitarians came later at the Protestant Reform.

The Arians called themselves Unitarians. They believed that God and Christ
were different from what emerged from the Council of Nicaea. The Unitarians
of the Protestant Reformation took their name from what the Arians called themselves.
The Schism between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches didn't become permanent until 1054 when the Pope and the Patriarch excommunicated each other.

the_lyniezian · May 26, 2008

I guess the idea of trinitariaism was pretty well established (or at least non-Arianism)- hence it was a small minority. I personally can't see from a purely scriptural (New Testament anyway) basis how one can get anything else. But then, the establised churches throughout history seem to rely on tradition rather than scripture per se...

Blackwood · May 27, 2008

the_lyniezian said:
I guess the idea of trinitariaism was pretty well established (or at least non-Arianism)- hence it was a small minority. I personally can't see from a purely scriptural (New Testament anyway) basis how one can get anything else. But then, the establised churches throughout history seem to rely on tradition rather than scripture per se...

Well, it seems to me that it would be impossible to rely on a single, "perfect" translation of the New Testament at the time without using tradition. Tradition is the missing piece of the puzzle upon which decisions and later translations were made...

Philip · May 28, 2008

bard32 said:
WI the Catholic Church hadn't adopted the Trinity? There was a small minority of bishops at the Council of Nicaea,

At the beginning of the Council of Nicaea they were a sizeable minority if not the majority. Athanasius of Alexandria convinced all but two (IIRC) to agree/adopt the Nicene position.

who believed that the Trinity was anti-
Christian. They wanted to keep God as one being.

The Nicene position is that the Trinity is one Being (essence). Indeed, the modern English translations of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed states that Christ is 'of one Being with the Father'. They asserted that the the Trinity is three Persons. The Arians dissented. They claimed that while Christ was God, he was not God in the same way the Father was God (if you will excuse the imprecision of that statement). Remember, the Arians were willing to accept a Creed that stated that Christ was 'of a similar essence of the Father' as opposed to the Catholic version 'of the same essence of the Father'.

They were known as Unitarians.

Um, no. The term Unitarian is a modern construct. They were know as Arians or Antiochians (even though Arius was teaching in Alexandria).

Unfortunately,

the majority of Catholic bishops, at the urging of Constantine the Great, went with the Trinitarians.

Have you been getting your history from Dan Brown?

bard32 said:
The Arians called themselves Unitarians.

Do you have a citation for that? I am particularly interested in why a group of Greek-speaking theologians would call themselves by a (neo-)Latin name.

Theodoric said:
Wasn't the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Chism caused by their views of the Trinity? This might prevent that, or change its nature.

In part, yes. However, the disagreements did not stem from this portion of Trinitarian doctrine. It is unlikely to have an effect on East-West relations.

It would play a bigger role the Romano-Germanic relations. Many of the Arians fled the Empire and spread Arianism among the Germanic tribes. If it had been Catholicism that spread among the Goths (et al), then perhaps they would have gotten along better. In particular, the Goths might have had more success in dealing with their Roman subjects.

Susano · May 28, 2008

On that matter, why does the thread title talk of the "Catholic Church"? Back then, it simply was the undivided "Christian Church"!

Philip · May 28, 2008

Susano said:
On that matter, why does the thread title talk of the "Catholic Church"? Back then, it simply was the undivided "Christian Church"!

It did use the name Catholic Church at the time. This was done mostly to differentiate itself from various Gnostic sects.

Susano · May 28, 2008

Philip said:
It did use the name Catholic Church at the time. This was done mostly to differentiate itself from various Gnostic sects.

Well, Catholic just means "Universal". So, yes, it was the Universal Christian Church. It wasnt what wed call the Catholic Church.

Philip · May 28, 2008

Susano said:
It wasnt what wed call the Catholic Church.

Agreed, but they did refer to themselves as the Catholic Church. It occurred as early as St Ignatius of Antioch at the end of the First Century. More famously, St Cyril of Jerusalem wrote (a bit after the Council of Nicaea)

Inquire not simply where the Lord's house is, for the sects of the profane also make an attempt to call their own dens the houses of the Lord; nor inquire merely where the church is, but where the Catholic Church is. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Body, the Mother of all, which is the Spouse of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Whether or not you choose to translate 'Catholic' is a matter of choice.

Joseph Solis in Australia · May 30, 2008

bard32 said:
The Arians called themselves Unitarians. They believed that God and Christ
were different from what emerged from the Council of Nicaea. The Unitarians
of the Protestant Reformation took their name from what the Arians called themselves.
The Schism between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches didn't become permanent until 1054 when the Pope and the Patriarch excommunicated each other.

It could be that Schism between the Catholic, Orthodox and Oriental Churches didn't become permanent but the leaders of that churches should agree to their views to avoid Schism like what happened in OTL.

Louis XI · May 30, 2008

American Transcendentalism, represented by Emerson and Thoreau, was influenced by Unitarianism.

What I can make of it, I don't know, except that the absence of a Trinity seems to favour a closer relationship of man with nature.

In the "Grapes of Wrath", Jim Casy (J.C.: Jesus Christ...) says:

"Why do we got to hang it on God or Jesus? Maybe, 'I figgered 'maybe it's all men and women we love; maybe that's the Holy sperit-the human sperit-the whole shebang. Maybe all men got one big soul ever'body's a part of."

Now, I wouldn't go as far as saying that Europe would have become Transcendentalist, but I like the picture. Transcendentalism is my favourite version of Christianity.

I believe Newton, who discovered some of Nature's secrets, was a closet Unitarian too, but I am not so sure...

fortyseven · May 30, 2008

Newton didn't believe that God was a trinity.

Analytical Engine · May 31, 2008

fortyseven said:
Newton didn't believe that God was a trinity.

He wasn't a Catholic, though...

Susano · May 31, 2008

Analytical Engine said:
He wasn't a Catholic, though...

And thats why I said it shouldnt be "Catholic Church" in the title

Besides as Flocc has pointed out iN Chat, Anglicanism is just Catholicism Lite anyways

But yes, he was Unitarian. Of course, while were at Unitarian squabbles, it wouldve been better to say from the Beginning that teh Arians were meant, who, after all, are just ONE form of CHristian Unitarism.

zoomar · Jun 2, 2008

A Christianity which was unitarian rather than trinitarian wouild presumably have had to abandon the notion that Jesus was the son of God, or in any way separate and or equal to "the father". Just like modern Unitarians, the church would probably evolve a more inclusive conept of God, focusing more on living a Christ-like life rather than believing any particular doctrine about who and what he was.

A Unitarian christianity would be closer to Judaism and Islam, and probably approache the other Abrahamic faiths in a more ecumenical way.