Italy invades Corsica 1871

Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
From a throwaway paragraph in Ropp's study of the French Navy's development, he says that Italian nationalists tried to convince King Victor Emmanuel "to countenance an expedition to Corsica during France's defeat in 1871"

What would this have been like, and could they have pulled it off ?

Grey Wolf
 

Faeelin

Banned
Depends. I'd say based on Italian performance in the naval war with austria, not a chancel in hell.
 

MerryPrankster

Thing is, France is VERY busy with the Prussians at this point. That's how the Italians were able to take Rome; the French garrison there withdrew.

If Italy occupies Corsica, how will the natives react?
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Matt Quinn said:
Thing is, France is VERY busy with the Prussians at this point. That's how the Italians were able to take Rome; the French garrison there withdrew.

If Italy occupies Corsica, how will the natives react?
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That's the thing - who would defend the place in the first instance ? 1871 and we're talking Paris Commune and a French government IIRC in Bordeaux. Its saddled with reparations and defeat, and political paralysis between two royalist factions and republicans.

Who controls the French army ? The navy ?

What's the state of the Italian navy ? How much is Italy swallowed up in affairs in Venetia and Rome ?

This sort of thing by definition is difficult to know - what state is a defeated nation in in the immediate aftermath ? It has all the hallmarks of the Freikorps era, but was France and the defeated army more cohesive than this ?

Grey Wolf
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
I think the critical issue is that there is hardly an Italian navy at this point - it is a small collection of weak ironclads.

I did some research into this for an Ottoman AH dealing with a clash over Tunis in 1882, and it looked to me like the Italians would have a hard time handling the Ottoman navy - the French would just brush them aside, and I think all French factions could agree upon this.

In any case, only a fraction of te French fleet would be required to fend off the Italians.

Grey Wolf said:
That's the thing - who would defend the place in the first instance ? 1871 and we're talking Paris Commune and a French government IIRC in Bordeaux. Its saddled with reparations and defeat, and political paralysis between two royalist factions and republicans.

Who controls the French army ? The navy ?

What's the state of the Italian navy ? How much is Italy swallowed up in affairs in Venetia and Rome ?

This sort of thing by definition is difficult to know - what state is a defeated nation in in the immediate aftermath ? It has all the hallmarks of the Freikorps era, but was France and the defeated army more cohesive than this ?

Grey Wolf
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Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
I think the critical issue is that there is hardly an Italian navy at this point - it is a small collection of weak ironclads.

I did some research into this for an Ottoman AH dealing with a clash over Tunis in 1882, and it looked to me like the Italians would have a hard time handling the Ottoman navy - the French would just brush them aside, and I think all French factions could agree upon this.

In any case, only a fraction of te French fleet would be required to fend off the Italians.
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Well, not that many Italian ships were sunk at Lissa so that the rest would be still around, though how much use they would be is a different matter

Er, I was gonna say something else...

Grey Wolf
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
Well, not that many Italian ships were sunk at Lissa so that the rest would be still around, though how much use they would be is a different matter

Er, I was gonna say something else...

Grey Wolf
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If you look at the ships available to the Italian navy, they are mostly small wooden ironclads, ranging from 4-6000 tons. The French had available numerous huge ironclads of the 10,000 ton range, outnumbering the Italians by a very large margin. I'll do a quick count and get back to you.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
OK.

Italy had 12 ironclads averaging about 4,000 tons.

France had 17 averaging 6,000 tons, plus 9 armored coast defense ships and 8 armored cruising ships that were about equal to the Italian ironclads.

The French fleet was also much superior in training, logistical support, etc.

Given the poximity of Corsica to French bases, the situation in France would have to be pretty chaotic for Italy to get away with this. This would probably also make Italy a giant target for French revanchism, since France can actually beat Italy.

I wonder at the effect upon colonialism? The scramble for Africa was partially started by Leopold, but in no small way also because of the desire of the French to regain lost pride by building a large colonial empire, causing the British to respond by expanding as well. If French energies become directed at Italy, you might see a totally different Africa, certainly including expanded Ottoman/Egyptian influence, which was growing steadily at this time, and we might see less French attention in Egypt and the Ottoman Empire with drastic results.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
There are two contrary elements here - 1. can Italy do this and 2. what happens if they do

If we posit a successful seizure of Corsica, everything changes

I would wonder for a start about Nice and Haut Savoie - these were ceded within recent memory, so why not seize them back rather than, or instead of, Corsica ?

Would Switzerland intervene over Haut Savoie ?

Grey Wolf
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
There are two contrary elements here - 1. can Italy do this and 2. what happens if they do

If we posit a successful seizure of Corsica, everything changes

I would wonder for a start about Nice and Haut Savoie - these were ceded within recent memory, so why not seize them back rather than, or instead of, Corsica ?

Would Switzerland intervene over Haut Savoie ?

Grey Wolf
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I think Corsica is attainable, and has an Italian-speaking (Genovese) population to boot.

I suspect Nice and Haut Savoie are beyond Italy's military capabilities - while I suppose it's possible in the short term, I don't think that's sustainable once France stabilizes. As an Island, Corsica would be much more complicated an issue, expecially given it's history.
 

LordKalvan

I am not completely sure it would be a naval war: Italy can accumulate supplies and troops in Sardinia, and from there it is just a few miles.
While it is very difficult to find any indication of the French ground forces in Corsica, i would expect they were quite reduced.
OTOH, if Italy decides to flex the muscles and get involved in the French-German war, it makes a lot more sense to try to get back Nice (which should be the simpler) and Savoy.
The Regia Marina had 2 6,000 tons battleships in 1870: Re di portogallo, and Roma (Venezia was under completion).
 

Susano

Banned
Psst, Kalvan, these are the naval freaks. Looking for excuses for a naval war is what they do, dont steal it from them :D
 

sikitu

I agree that France had a large navy in 1870/71. Actually, they even set up a blockade of the German coasts, but not to any effect. However, according to some sources, the navy was recalled as the war went bad and the crews were mostly used at land. Can anyone confirm this?

Actually, I think Italy has a good chance to land in Corsica due to the small sea distance and due to France's internal troubles. Most French ships also should be in the Northern ports due to the war with Germany.

Things would look better if the Italians also make some diversional thrust in the Nice area.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
LordKalvan said:
There is that. Anyone to discuss the Swiss Navy? :D
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Oddly enough, its possible that it would see some action. Haute Savoie under the 1815 settlement was to be permanently demilitarised. This obligation passed from Piedmont-Sardinia/Italy to France when it was ceded, along with Nice.

At the time there was considerable Swiss sentiment for annexation of the cantons - and its what the majority of the inhabitants would have gone for had they been given the choice. Of course neither Cavour nor Napoleon III had any intention of asking them.

If Italy goes for Corsica, and especially if it goes for Nice, then Haute Savoie could become a bone of contention between Italy and Switzerland...

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
Reading more about the Franco-Prussian War it would appear that virtually the entire navy served on land with distinction in the defence of Paris, and that the naval arsenals were exhausted in this endeavour. Quite what this means in terms of being able to man the warships in the South, and then supply them I don't know for sure but it can't be a positive aspect !

Grey Wolf
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Grey Wolf said:
Reading more about the Franco-Prussian War it would appear that virtually the entire navy served on land with distinction in the defence of Paris, and that the naval arsenals were exhausted in this endeavour. Quite what this means in terms of being able to man the warships in the South, and then supply them I don't know for sure but it can't be a positive aspect !

Grey Wolf
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I don't think the question is whether or not Italy CAN invade Corsica, it's whether or not they would be bold enough to try it 5 years after Lissa and knowing the on paper power of the French fleet.

And even more important than that (as governments frequently do things that are bolder [read: 'stupider'] than one would expect), what next?

The only practical issue I would look into to see if this is workable is the state of Italian finances.

Hostorically, France chose 1881 to seize Tunis for a specific reason: Italy, which had been bankrupt, had just contracted a large loan and now had the resources to seize Tunis themselves, and a clear intention to do so.
 

LordKalvan

Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
I don't think the question is whether or not Italy CAN invade Corsica, it's whether or not they would be bold enough to try it 5 years after Lissa and knowing the on paper power of the French fleet.

And even more important than that (as governments frequently do things that are bolder [read: 'stupider'] than one would expect), what next?

The only practical issue I would look into to see if this is workable is the state of Italian finances.

Hostorically, France chose 1881 to seize Tunis for a specific reason: Italy, which had been bankrupt, had just contracted a large loan and now had the resources to seize Tunis themselves, and a clear intention to do so.
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I would rather say that the benefits from an annexation of Corsica would be very small, if not negative: no prospect for colonization, no production of anything worth. Corsica is a lovely island for a holiday, but in 1870 that would not have been an issue :D

Frankly, I could possibly imagine an Italy trying to get back Nice and Savoy (Savoy was the original seat of the dinasty, and the county of Nice became Savoyard in 1388: in both cases, the historical ties were much stronger); however, you should not forget that the public opinion was mostly in favor of France. Actually, Garibaldi participated in the Franco-prussian war commanding an irregular corp (Italian legion)
 
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