British Florida: 1763 - 2005

[Landshark]

Just something that's been on my mind since Wolf mentioned it in the Cliches thread.

Any ideas how Britain can keep Florida after the end of the ARW and how it'd develop over the next 200 plus years?

(Extra points if Britain gets Cuba in 1783 as well)

[Flocculencio]

Could the NHS ship all the OAPs there?

Sorry...

[Derek Jackson]

I thought that Florida was Spanish. Was there a question of Britain taking it off Spain some time in the 1700s?

A British Florida after 1833 would be a rather convenient magnet for runaway slaves.

I assume that such a state would have got self government and in due course achieved dominion status.

[Darkling]

Originally Posted by Derek Jackson

I thought that Florida was Spanish. Was there a question of Britain taking it off Spain some time in the 1700s?

Britain took Florida (including West Florida which covered the bottom end of Alabama and Mississippi, below the 33 or 32 parallel up to the Spanish border) in the Seven Years war and returned it to Spain after the American Revolutionary War.

A British Florida after 1833 would be a rather convenient magnet for runaway slaves.

Possibly even before then.

[Archangel Michael]

Don't have Spain enter the ARW, and the Floridas remain British for some time.

[Grimm Reaper]

On the dear old board I actually raised an issue where the British kept Spanish Florida but also held onto Georgia and South Carolina during the ARW.

[David S Poepoe]

I would wonder if Britain did control Florida during the War of 1812 if they would have moved against New Orleans earlier, or at all. The Royal Navy would be able to operate from southern ports, say they have an anchorage at St. Augustine. Tampa Bay looks like a potentially nice port from which to dominate the Gulf of Mexico. I suspect that the British, as tradition usually dictates, would have chased out whatever pirates there were in the region - so Jean Lafitte would most likely be out of the picture.

I would suggest its more likely that history would record the Siege of New Orleans with Jackson leading the assault on British fortifications. The Treaty of Paris would see the British withdraw from New Orleans, but later develop a major port at Mobile. In the aftermath of the War of 1812 the British would deploy alot of forces to Florida to keep the Seminoles in line and to keep US settlers out.

Its possible that between 1820-1850 British entrepeneurs will build cotton mills in Florida and be especially interested in investing in the South's infrastructure in order to ease the shipment of cotton to their Floridian mills. This could result in the construction of railways north into Georgia, Mississippi and Alabama.

This certainly leads to a quandry when the American Civil War breaks out. The Union wouldn't be able to blockade any ports of British Florida and the South will be able to get its cotton to market relatively easily - just over the border. Britain may be more economically tied in with the South in TTL so the possibility of it entering into the war on the side of the Confederacy is high.

[Archangel Michael]

New Orleans was in Louisiana.

[Grimm Reaper]

Yikes! I just realized that British support for emancipation just took a hit! Freeing the slaves not only sets up an explosion in British SE America, it effectively puts most of the defense forces into rebellion and an appeal to the USA! Does this delay emancipation? Does emancipation take a hit when talk of financial compensation is raised? And if for Florida, then why not other colonies?

Sorry, sorry, I'm assuming my Georgia/South Carolina/Alabama also in the British Empire, not just Florida. Without any real settlers, Florida is a big nothing dominated by swamps and the Seminole nation. Probably the US buys it in the 1840s.

[Raymann]

Agreed, the US would offer enough money one day that the British would be forced to sell, just Bahama is useful to them and there aren't enough people in Flordia to justify developing Tampa or Mobile.

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Mikey

New Orleans was in Louisiana.

Really? Are you telling me it moved recently.

[Grey Wolf]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/unite..._terr_1810.jpg

West Florida is I believe the light green bit to the West of the Orleans Territory


http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/histo...es_1763-76.jpg

is an earlier map but shows the area in more detail

Grey Wolf

[Darkling]

I would think West Florida would get a fair number of inhabitants, it is another place for the UEL to go after the War and for those in the south it is much more suited to their current livelihoods than Canada is.

If this timeline has a war of 1812 then I would expect the US to do even worse since they now face even more enemies (including a fair number of slaves granted freedom in exchange for military service I would imagine), I could easily see Britain pushing the border west to the new Spanish border (nipping off the Southern part of Louisiana) in order to gain control of the Mississippi and deny the US a port in the gulf of Mexico.

I'm not sure how large of a hit abolition would take, the people in Florida won't have a say in Parliament and so the only concern will be economic (parliament probably reduces the amount given for each slave).

With Britain having a bigger stake in North America they may be less willing to let the US dictate terms and the South is likely to be unhappy with their slaves constantly escaping to British territory .

[DuQuense]

1720's -30-- Spanish in Florida launch several Attacks on the English Settlers in South Carolina, Mostly in the Savannah Area, But one Reaches Charleston.

1732?-1733? --Colony of Georgia Started. Spanish Launch Several more attacks and Support the Indians in their attacks on the Settlers.

1740- - War of Jenkins's Ear. Mostly a Naval War with Spain trying to Prevent British[American] Smugglers from breaking the Spanish Trade Laws. This faded into The War of Austrian Succession 1741-1748

ATL- 1740 -- The Spanish launch a major Attack Killing close to a thousand settlers and Burning large parts of Savannah.

1741- - The British respond by stationing a large Force in Georgia along the Border with Florida. This not only stops the Spanish attacks but also decreases the Indian Raids.

1742- 1753 the increased security provided by the troops allow faster settlement of the Colony of Georgia. Increased Number of Prisoners,are transported and sold, after King George rescinds the Ban on Slavery. In fact by 1752 Georgia is the Only Colony receiving British Prisoners.

1754-- French move into the Ohio Valley establishing Forts and Chasing British Settlers out.

1755-- The British military Moves into the Ohio Building Counter Forts. They also send Reinforcements to Georgia.

1756--Britain & France Declare War. French Indian War starts. In the Ohio Valley , Spain Joins as a French ally.

1757-- British Regulars Joined by Georgia militia Capture Tallahassee in Spanish Florida. Splitting Florida in half, and giving Britain control of the Gulf Coast.

1758 -- British Regulars Joined by Georgia militia Capture Fort Augustine, Giving Britain procession of Florida.

1759--The First British Settlers start moving into Florida.

1763-- British troops Capture Havana,

1764-- Spain gives Britain “the Yucatan� in return for returning Cuba, [IOTL this is how they got Florida, but ATL they already have it] Spain also confirmers the British Procession of Florida. [OTL first British Settlers Building Roads, and Canals to drain the Swamps]

The British Split Florida into East and West Florida. [See GW's map link]

1765-- Daniel Boone Visits Florida. [OTL]

1776-- there are about 25-30.000 settlers in East Florida [Double OTL] The Vast Majority are Loyalists, this is Despite the fact that lots of them are escaped Prisoners, from Georgia.

1776 – 1781-- the British use Florida as a Resupply and Launch point for attacks into the US. The US still wins,

1781-1783-- Loyalists from the American South As far north as Virginia move to British Florida. Most in East Florida.

OTL- despite the loyalty of the British in Florida GB gave Florida back to Spain, Basically just for Spain's Asking. Almost a After thought. By 1785 Spain had chased most of the Settlers out. And the Roads and Canals started deteriorating. Most of the Settlers moved to West Florida where They joined with the American Settlers in Asking for Annexation in 1811. They were turned Down as the US didn't want to upset Spanish ally Great Britain.

1783-- Treaty of Paris, Confirms Britain's Procession of Florida, With the exact Borders left unspecified.

1789-- US Constitution Convention

[Grimm Reaper]

An important historical point is that the United States for most of its first century was hitting well below its weight category. Given a British presence on more than one border and increased feelings of pressure, it is very likely that the US responds with a more substantial military.

As an example, in the years prior to the War of 1812 the United States Army expanded by roughly 2.5 times, from about 2400 to 6400 men. But years earlier in a time of crisis, the US briefly put together an army of over 6000 which was intended to reach 10,000. So now the USA has a regular army of 6400 or so in 1806, and launches an expansion to almost 17,000 by the time the war begins.

Likewise the US Navy expands. The original six 'super-frigates' are all built at one time with their smaller brethren. Later another six and 1-2 line of battle ships are added.

Given the harm the US Navy did to the British merchant marine, any expansion will be painful. Not to mention the possible loss of more frigates and perhaps a line of battle ship or two.

On land, of course, the situation is much worse. We may confidently expect the collapse of most of Canada's defenses early on, as the badly outnumbered and outgunned British, along with Canadian and Native American allies, are forced into early combat on the border. This would happen this way on the simple basis that early defeats/withdrawings would shatter the Canadian militia morale and probably cost the British any Native allies quickly, therefore the British MUST make a stand as soon as possible. But given an American force doubled or tripled in size...

For one thing, given 4-5 thousand men would probably mean a greatly lessened dependence on the American militia, and the offensive from New York would go on. Isaac Brock is never able to reinforce the contingent near Detroit and eventually even 'Granny' Hull starts to move.

Meanwhile, what is Florida worth in terms of manpower? Perhaps 50K? 75K? Even all of 100K? And slavery isn't abolished yet, so maybe 5000 militia can be fielded tops. Remember, the Seminoles will have MANY things to say regarding these new arrivals.

Of course, the question remains as to just how many men the British can spare from the Napoleonic Wars. There is a grave possibility that the British will be unable to find any more, and therefore the existing Canadian contingent is now split with perhaps a third going to Florida.

Given the likely outcome, I would foresee the British trying hard to avoid war, perhaps even to the point of border concessions.

[DuQuense]

1-- I have most of the Southern loyalists going to Florida, I would assume that there were Some who wanted to Go to Canada OTL but didn't due to travel problems. Here they have a Choice N or S. ? Would there be that many more ? and if so ? What effect would this have on the politics of Reconciliation?

2-- If you look at GWs map link you see that both Georgia's and Florida's land claims go all the way to the Mississippi. And the Georgia & Florida claims overlapped along the Border.

3-- If I go with GReapers Idea of stepping the US up one weight class. [IIRC the US had ~ 2-2.5 million while GB had 6 million people in the 1780's]. I don't see more than one step up given the gestalt of the time. ?What effect would this have on the 1798 War with France? Given the GB/France war ?What would be the effect of a open Declaration of War by the US.? ?Is 15 years long enuff to allow a fellow traveler alliance. /Or at least some degree of co-ordination.

4-- If the US has gone ahead with the dozen proposed 48 -gun Frigates {OTL we built 6} as well as the couple proposed 74- gun Man of War , ? what would "King of the Seas" GB's response be?

5-- As British Florida shares a Border with Spanish [France's Ally] Louisiana, ?would GB feel that Attack on Louisiana was worth it.? OTL They didn't- but a land attack is different that a sea transit.

6-- If I step up the US, ?would It's Military be up to attacking Louisiana in the 1798 time frame?

[Darkling]

Originally Posted by DuQuense

1-- I have most of the Southern loyalists going to Florida, I would assume that there were Some who wanted to Go to Canada OTL but didn't due to travel problems. Here they have a Choice N or S. ? Would there be that many more ? and if so ? What effect would this have on the politics of Reconciliation?

I would think there would be more people leaving the US; the Loyalists in south would have somewhere to go which was close to home and with a similar climate.

Britain will also probably be handing out free land so a good number of the neutrals in the ARW may take the opportunity to move south as well.

2-- If you look at GWs map link you see that both Georgia's and Florida's land claims go all the way to the Mississippi. And the Georgia & Florida claims overlapped along the Border.

If Britain is keeping Florida I imagine they would make sure the border is set in the Treaty of Paris (although squabbles about the exact line may continue).

[IIRC the US had ~ 2-2.5 million while GB had 6 million people in the 1780's].

In 1810 (which would be relevant to an Alt war of 1812) the US had 7.2 million and Britain had 12 million plus 6 million Irish and .6 million in Canada.

[Darkling]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

As an example, in the years prior to the War of 1812 the United States Army expanded by roughly 2.5 times, from about 2400 to 6400 men. But years earlier in a time of crisis, the US briefly put together an army of over 6000 which was intended to reach 10,000. So now the USA has a regular army of 6400 or so in 1806, and launches an expansion to almost 17,000 by the time the war begins.

The problem with getting such an expansion is Jefferson (and Jeffersonians in general), under their guidance the US army was cut from 4000 (in 180) to 2500, cavalry was completely abolished (their horses were sold and the proceeds given to the treasury) and even the forces the US maintained were underpaid (or not paid for long stretches, up to 15 months in some cases).

The US under anybody like Jefferson is going to smash the budget, they will also probably have the same prejudice against SoL (a tool of Imperialist Monarchies not Republics).

The navy suffered in a similar way to the army although that was coming to a degree before Jefferson he put the final torch to it.


I'm not sure a few more British to the South will cause much more alarm than the Spanish and French being there.

On the subject of British manpower being stretched thin here is what was in the US's neighbourhood in 1813 (a little late I will grant but its the only figures I have to hand and they do make a point).

Bahamas 850
Bermuda 732
Canada 12,935
Jamaica 3,889
Newfoundland 708
Nova Scotia 4,189
Leeward and Windward Islands 15,248

If it became urgent many of these could be stripped to reinforce another area (especially since the French navy is now a much reduced problem).

In 1812 the British army numbered 244,000 (44,000 of these being foreign and colonial troops).
Of these 60,000 are fighting in the Peninsula, much of he rest is sitting in Britain or garrisoning somewhere which could have its forces reduced.

In the situation in America becomes desperate Britain does have some forces they could spare (both locally and throughout the Empire) and once the war ends fighting to regain Imperial honour and subjects is a very different prospect to invading the US for the benefit of the natives or to grab some land in the west.

[Justin Green]

ISnt it likely that Native American tribes in the US would flee to Florida and that slaves would attempt to flee their as well. If florida was a safe haven for african americans I think it's likely that southerners would be more anglophobic.

What if the British decide to create florida as a colony for freedmen and to resettle indian tibes their (instead of Sierra Leone)?

[David S Poepoe]

I don't necessarily believe that a British Florida will lead to great US militarism. I would consider it even likely that the British may reconcile their differences with the US during the Napoleonic Wars in order to safeguard Canada and Florida.

What I would consider more likely is that with increased British interest in the Caribbean that one would see the declaration of the Canning or Canning-Monroe Doctrine, rather than just the Monroe Doctrine, in regards to the rebelling Spanish colonies in the 1820s. It wouldn't be to hard to also consider, depending on the foreign affairs in the 1840s, that Britain may place a more decisive role in Republic of Texas, perhaps extending loans to it in order to create a possible ally against the US in the region.