Could Italy Occupy Corsica . . .

Highlander

Banned
Out of curiosity, lets say that Italy joined the Central Powers. In a war with France, could the Italians occupy the island of Corsica?

Also, and this is just a general question, but does anyone know a site where I can find the goals for each nations during the War?
 
Why would Italy want to occupy Corsica in WWI? They would be hard pressed to defend their own seacoast from bombardment and their own islands from attack.
 

Irioth

Banned
Why would Italy want to occupy Corsica in WWI? They would be hard pressed to defend their own seacoast from bombardment and their own islands from attack.

Let's not exaggerate. The Britsh needed all of US resources and manpower to stage a successful attack on an Italian island in WWII, in WWI they would be all by themselves, the French can provide little help here, and their record at amphibious operations in that war is far from shining (Gallipoli, anyone ?). The RN showing up occasionally and bombing a port here and there, yes, but actual invasions ? Hmmm.
 
Let's not exaggerate. The Britsh needed all of US resources and manpower to stage a successful attack on an Italian island in WWII, in WWI they would be all by themselves, the French can provide little help here, and their record at amphibious operations in that war is far from shining (Gallipoli, anyone ?). The RN showing up occasionally and bombing a port here and there, yes, but actual invasions ? Hmmm.

Invading Gallipoli is quite different from going after an island, since the Royal Navy would be able to effectively interdict any supplies and reinforcements for the Italian forces to an island in way they can't do when attacking the mainland.
 

~The Doctor~

Also, and this is just a general question, but does anyone know a site where I can find the goals for each nations during the War?

Italy wanted the Tyrol, a region of Austria that is almost entirely Italian.

Before they joined the Allies, there was some communication between them and the CPs. They would enter the war if Austria would give them Tyrol. They refused, and they joined the Allies.
 

Susano

Banned
Italy wanted the Tyrol, a region of Austria that is almost entirely Italian.
Uh, no. Only the Meran region is. Split up Tyrol roughly in three parts, the regions (from north to south) of Innsbruck, Bozen and Meran - the former two are almost entirely German, and the latter almost entriely Italian, but Italy got the latter two. It did not just establish ethnic borders.

Before they joined the Allies, there was some communication between them and the CPs. They would enter the war if Austria would give them Tyrol. They refused, and they joined the Allies.
Actually, the talks were about the County of Gorizia and Gradisca, in which is nowadays the Slovenian-Italian borderland, and indeed the territory was mostly Italian with a Slovenian minority.

However, of course Italy could as well ahev focused on irredentism against France - Savoy and Nice, that is.
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Uh, no. Only the Meran region is. Split up Tyrol roughly in three parts, the regions (from north to south) of Innsbruck, Bozen and Meran - the former two are almost entirely German, and the latter almost entriely Italian, but Italy got the latter two. It did not just establish ethnic borders.

Actually, the talks were about the County of Gorizia and Gradisca, in which is nowadays the Slovenian-Italian borderland, and indeed the territory was mostly Italian with a Slovenian minority.

Thank you, I've been trying to remember those details myself. I read them in Albertini, then couldn't find them in any book or website I was able to lay my hands on

Susano said:
However, of course Italy could as well ahev focused on irredentism against France - Savoy and Nice, that is.

As well as Tunis, which is was hoping to get predominance in before the French made their move there in the later 19th century

Best Regards
Grye Wolf
 

Irioth

Banned
Indeed. Had A-U given up Southern Trent, and Trieste-Gorizia, which were ovewhelmingly Italian, Italy would have quickly refocused its irredentist claims against France (Corsica, Savoy, and Nice) and colonial claims as well (Tunis), as Mussolini did later, and attacked France on the Alps. Italy would have had residual irredentist claims on A-U (the rest of Istria, Dalmatia) but they were nowhere as serious as Trent and Trieste, they would have likely been put back in a drawer for the next occasion. It is almost sure that Italy would have entered war on the side of Germany in that case. Their advance would have likely fared as poorly as attacks on A-U did, but France and UK would have been forced to station at least 1/3 of their Armies on the Alps, which in all likelihood would have broken the back of the French army on the next big German offensive, especially if Germany and Italy would have coordinated their attacks.
 

Susano

Banned
Italy might have given up Gorizia and Gradisca, but no way theyd have given up the entire Küstenland, and surely not Triest - that was its main naval base! Though for Italy it of course would still be advantageous to peacefully gain Trent (argh, Trent I meant, not Meran!) and Gorizia and Gradisca, to then wage war to ALSO gain Savoy and Nice...
 
I'd echo that attacking a entire island is a lot easier then attacking a vital, narrow channel.

And the French would be a help, their navy was quite significant.


If a large amount of the entente army did have to be sent elsewhere this would not happen in a vacuum. They would not act identically in the north except with less men, they could well decide to follow a more defensive policy and hope to knock out the CP via secondary front victories and stopping any imports from getting to them. In the alps they certainly would defend and let the Italians kill themselves trying to attack the mountains.
 

Irioth

Banned
Italy might have given up Gorizia and Gradisca, but no way theyd have given up the entire Küstenland, and surely not Triest - that was its main naval base! Though for Italy it of course would still be advantageous to peacefully gain Trent (argh, Trent I meant, not Meran!) and Gorizia and Gradisca, to then wage war to ALSO gain Savoy and Nice...

Possible, with Trent and Gorizia-Gradisca, the vast majority of the basic Italian national claims vs. A-U was realized, in comparison the bounty that could still be reaped from France was way higher: Nice, Corsica, Savoy, plus Tunis, Gibuti. I'm sure Germany would have been willing to throw some other French colony if need be, in order to sweeten the deal. Italy could have been put the Trieste/Istria/Dalmatia claim back in the drawer, waiting for when A-U would have eventually crumbled down, and it would have been partitioned with Germany and Hungary.
 
If Italy joined the CP and they won, I could see Corsica being handed over to Rome, but I'm sure faced with the combined might of the RN and French fleet in the Med, they would have focused on the Alps, I wouldn't be surprised to see Sardinia fall during the war, maybe even vicious fighting in Sicily but the Italians would have been bonkers to attempt a landing in Corsica during the war.
 

Irioth

Banned
If Italy joined the CP and they won, I could see Corsica being handed over to Rome, but I'm sure faced with the combined might of the RN and French fleet in the Med, they would have focused on the Alps, I wouldn't be surprised to see Sardinia fall during the war, maybe even vicious fighting in Sicily but the Italians would have been bonkers to attempt a landing in Corsica during the war.

Sincerely, I'm not so keen on the compared might of the Italian + AustroHungarian fleets vs. Mediterranean Anglo-French fleets to tell whether the Sardinia landing was feasible, I highly doubt about the Sicilia one, the Messina strait is too narrow, the CP fleets would have little trouble keeping it open, and if they can't siaolate Siciliy, a Birtish landing will end in a blood shed like Gallipoli.

Sincerely, I doubt the streategic value of occupying either Sardinia or Corsica, little manpower or resources of value, What are UK/FRance to gain from an occupied Sardinia, and for Italy it looks like Corsica is better claimed at the peace table, it would be a purely symbolic occupation, and unlikely unless UK and France suffer some catastrophic naval defeat in the North Sea and are forced to withdraw the Navies from the Mediterranean.

Strategically, Italy has much more to gain frocusing its efforts on pounding France on the Alps, possibly timing its offensives with German ones, so that France is obliged to exaust its reserves.

If anything, if the CPs want to do something really nasty, they could violate Switzerland's neutrality. Rich areas, ethnic claims for both Germany and Italy, it would force France to stretch the border to defend much further, French-Swiss border is not easy to defend, the CPs can attack it from three sides, making it undefensible. Belgium mk. II.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Sincerely, I'm not so keen on the compared might of the Italian + AustroHungarian fleets vs. Mediterranean Anglo-French fleets to tell whether the Sardinia landing was feasible, I highly doubt about the Sicilia one, the Messina strait is too narrow, the CP fleets would have little trouble keeping it open, and if they can't siaolate Siciliy, a Birtish landing will end in a blood shed like Gallipoli.

Sincerely, I doubt the streategic value of occupying either Sardinia or Corsica, little manpower or resources of value, What are UK/FRance to gain from an occupied Sardinia, and for Italy it looks like Corsica is better claimed at the peace table, it would be a purely symbolic occupation, and unlikely unless UK and France suffer some catastrophic naval defeat in the North Sea and are forced to withdraw the Navies from the Mediterranean.

Strategically, Italy has much more to gain frocusing its efforts on pounding France on the Alps, possibly timing its offensives with German ones, so that France is obliged to exaust its reserves.

If anything, if the CPs want to do something really nasty, they could violate Switzerland's neutrality. Rich areas, ethnic claims for both Germany and Italy, it would force France to stretch the border to defend much further, French-Swiss border is not easy to defend, the CPs can attack it from three sides, making it undefensible. Belgium mk. II.

Just one little problem.

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/...ngsstand.parsys.0005.1.photo.Photogallery.gif
 

MrP

Banned
I'm glad Leej mentioned the Marine Nationale! I was beginning to think everyone had forgotten it. It's been a while since I looked at the OTL numbers for the MN, but given the less than stellar qualities of the A-H battleships and the large numbers of predreads in the MN, it's not a cakewalk for either side. The Regia Marina's quite tasty in this period, but a lot of construction was targeted at controlling the Adriatic in the event of war with A-H. I forget what I was reading the other day, but it mentioned the 1909 Russo-Italian non-aggression treaty, which was signed in secret. It's not essential to get rid of that, but it would be helpful to eliminate the root causes of it. As Susano says, getting Italy to think about going after S France again is probably more likely than Corsica. Incidentally, Corsica could be part of a victorious CP peace settlement, even if an Italian landing fails ITTL.

I utterly fail to get your point, sorry. :confused:

I think it's that Switzerland's a messy hilly place, well suited to defence a la WWI.
 

Irioth

Banned
I forget what I was reading the other day, but it mentioned the 1909 Russo-Italian non-aggression treaty, which was signed in secret. It's not essential to get rid of that, but it would be helpful to eliminate the root causes of it. As Susano says, getting Italy to think about going after S France again is probably more likely than Corsica. Incidentally, Corsica could be part of a victorious CP peace settlement, even if an Italian landing fails ITTL.

Oh, I think the moment A-U hands over Trent and Gorizia, that treaty will be thrown into the dustbin, the same way the Triple Alliance treaty was in 1915. Italy will surely put the whole Nice/Savoy/Corsica package in its war aim list, as well as Tunis, but the first two will indeed be at the top.

I think it's that Switzerland's a messy hilly place, well suited to defence a la WWI.

Yes, but it would still be assaulted by three sides.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I utterly fail to get your point, sorry. :confused:

Big mountains in the way, I thought it was a good way to show how hostile they are to humans by showing how few people who live there. Italy would have a hard time invading Switzerland from the south, but it would be even harder to move armies through Switzerland to France that way.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think it's that Switzerland's a messy hilly place, well suited to defence a la WWI.


Especially from the south and east, it would be relative easy to invade from the north and west. But it did give me a idea, Germany could invade through Switzerland and then Italy could close the supplyroutes down to the Swiss strongholds.
 

MrP

Banned
Oh, I think the moment A-U hands over Trent and Gorizia, that treaty will be thrown into the dustbin, the same way the Triple Alliance treaty was in 1915. Italy will surely put the whole Nice/Savoy/Corsica package in its war aim list, as well as Tunis, but the first two will indeed be at the top.

ISTR that IOTL A-H tried a land offering to Italy, but didn't manage to pull it off.

Especially from the south and east, it would be relative easy to invade from the north and west. But it did give me a idea, Germany could invade through Switzerland and then Italy could close the supplyroutes down to the Swiss strongholds.

I definitely recall that the Swiss were so worried that the German High Command had to specify to them that nothing would happen.

I've got population figures for Switzerland in this period somewhere or other, but I'm not sure where. I'm pretty sure that defences weren't anywhere near as good as WWII, when something like every bridge and tunnel was rigged for demolition.
 
Top