Catherine of Braganza marries Louis XIV of France

[Gonzaga]

Before her marriage with Charles II of England and Scotland the Portuguese princess Catherine of Braganza was a candidate to marry Louis XIV of France. At that time both France and Portugal were at war against Spain. However, the Treaty of the Pyrenees was signed in 1659, ending the Franco-Spanish war and arranging the marriage of Louis XIV and Maria Theresia of Spain.

But WI Catherine had been married to Louis XIV before the peace were done, of the war had lasted a little longer and the marriage had been done? Now is Louis XIV who would probably suffer the fate of Charles II and never have children (it would have interesting consequences when the Spanish Habsburgs die out). Also, who could be married to Charles II, and maybe continue the rule of the House of Stuart? And who would probably marry Maria Theresia, replacing the Bourbons as the probable line of succession for the Spanish throne?

[ImperialVienna]

Well Philippe II, the Duke of Orleans, is the most direct male candidate for the French Throne. Thus he would likely become Philippe V of France, and be succeeded by his son as Louis XV, and would likely have a stable succeessive male line after that. As to whom Maria Theresa would marry I haven't the foggiest. For Leopold she would be too old, so perhaps Alfonso IV of Modena or Ferdinand Maria, the Elector of Bavaria?

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by ImperialVienna

Well Philippe II, the Duke of Orleans, is the most direct male candidate for the French Throne. Thus he would likely become Philippe V of France, and be succeeded by his son as Louis XV, and would likely have a stable succeessive male line after that.

Well, Philip died before Louis XIV, so probably his son would inherit. However, IOTL he only had a surviving male son from his second wife, Elisabeth Charlotte, Countess Palatine (his first wife died in 1670). If Louis XIV has no issue then the choice of Philip's next wife becomes more important, and so we might see a different princess marrying him.

Originally Posted by ImperialVienna

As to whom Maria Theresa would marry I haven't the foggiest. For Leopold she would be too old, so perhaps Alfonso IV of Modena or Ferdinand Maria, the Elector of Bavaria?

Both interesting candidates. Ferdinand Maria would mean the union between Spain and Bavaria. But Alfonso would mean the D'Este, a minor Italian noble family, becoming kings of one of the most important countries in Europe. Also, it would add more lands to the Spanish territories in Italy.

[ImperialVienna]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Well, Philip died before Louis XIV, so probably his son would inherit. However, IOTL he only had a surviving male son from his second wife, Elisabeth Charlotte, Countess Palatine (his first wife died in 1670). If Louis XIV has no issue then the choice of Philip's next wife becomes more important, and so we might see a different princess marrying him.

You're thinking of Philippe I, the Duke of Orleans, Philippe II was the regent for Louis XV. Ironoically, and I just realized this, this could also mean that Louis-Philippe could possibly still become King in several generations.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by ImperialVienna

You're thinking of Philippe I, the Duke of Orleans, Philippe II was the regent for Louis XV. Ironoically, and I just realized this, this could also mean that Louis-Philippe could possibly still become King in several generations.

Oh, sorry, I confused the Philips.

But as said probably this Philip II would be completely different from his OTL counterpart.
BTW, any idea for an alternative wife to Charles II? Catherine had no sisters, so another Portuguese princess is impossible.

[ImperialVienna]

Well Sophia, OTL Electress of Hannover, was born the same year as Charles II... I dunno but that would sure be interesting...

[Thande]

France gets Bombay perhaps? Though England had made it clear that we would get that port one way or the other, going to war with France in this era is too tall an order to justify it.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by ImperialVienna

Well Sophia, OTL Electress of Hannover, was born the same year as Charles II... I dunno but that would sure be interesting...

Well, according to "infallible" Wikipedia Sophia was thought to be his wife, but she refused to marry a first cousin. Also, she was already married in 1662, the year that Charles II married IOTL.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Thande

France gets Bombay perhaps? Though England had made it clear that we would get that port one way or the other, going to war with France in this era is too tall an order to justify it.

If England goes to war with France for her Indian colonies (Bombay) would Charles still sell Dunkirk to another power, or England would keep it? Also, the French would receive Tangier too, or they could ask some territory in South America or Africa instead.

[Susano]

Oh, nice, removing France's claim to Spain... I wouldnt worry about French succession, thats secured, but it does change teh Spanish Succession. france would still do whatever to avoid full Habsburg encirclement, but it now lacks a pretext to act...

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Susano

Oh, nice, removing France's claim to Spain... I wouldnt worry about French succession, thats secured, but it does change teh Spanish Succession. france would still do whatever to avoid full Habsburg encirclement, but it now lacks a pretext to act...

True. For the Spanish succession, there would be two Habsburg candidates to marry Maria Theresia: the future emperor Leopold (who was just two years younger than Maria) and Sigismund Francis, Archduke of Further Austria. But he was a bishop, and died early in 1665, so we might see a reunion of the Habsburg territories as in the times of Charles V (unless, of course, some kind of agreement is done).

[Susano]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

True. For the Spanish succession, there would be two Habsburg candidates to marry Maria Theresia: the future emperor Leopold (who was just two years younger than Maria) and Sigismund Francis, Archduke of Further Austria. But he was a bishop, and died early in 1665, so we might see a reunion of the Habsburg territories as in the times of Charles V (unless, of course, some kind of agreement is done).

Well, Leopold most likely, which means Margaret Theresia (gah! The inbreeding is bad enough, they couldve at least shown some more creativity with names!) needs to find another husband. And thats important, after all, through her Joseph Ferdinand's claim went IOTL. Hm, if she and not her OTL daughter marries into Wittelsbach, she could marry Maximilian Philipp Hieronymus, uncle of and regent for Maximilian Emmanuel (who married her said OTL daughter IOTL). But that makes it too easy

France simply wont allow Habsburg reunification, and neither will the Sea Powers. Even if Margaret Theresia does not marry into Wittelsbach, there oughta be SOME Spanish Habsburg girl that married into another house some generations back? The claim might be utterly weak, but France will still push it, and the Sea Powers will be inclined to agree. Nobody wants an unified uber-Habsburg. Well, uh, that is, everybody on this board does, but nobody in power back then did Due to French rpessure that claimant might evebn, unlike as was planned for Joseph Ferdinand IOTL, gain all Spanish possessions.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Susano

Well, Leopold most likely, which means Margaret Theresia (gah! The inbreeding is bad enough, they couldve at least shown some more creativity with names!) needs to find another husband. And thats important, after all, through her Joseph Ferdinand's claim went IOTL. Hm, if she and not her OTL daughter marries into Wittelsbach, she could marry Maximilian Philipp Hieronymus, uncle of and regent for Maximilian Emmanuel (who married her said OTL daughter IOTL). But that makes it too easy

France simply wont allow Habsburg reunification, and neither will the Sea Powers. Even if Margaret Theresia does not marry into Wittelsbach, there oughta be SOME Spanish Habsburg girl that married into another house some generations back? The claim might be utterly weak, but France will still push it, and the Sea Powers will be inclined to agree. Nobody wants an unified uber-Habsburg. Well, uh, that is, everybody on this board does, but nobody in power back then did Due to French rpessure that claimant might evebn, unlike as was planned for Joseph Ferdinand IOTL, gain all Spanish possessions.

But I think that IOTL the claim of the throne went to the descendents of Margaret Theresia (you're right, if they could not choose other family to marry they could at least choose some new names!) because Maria Theresia's line was excluded from the succession, exactly in order to avoid a Bourbon becoming king. If Maria Theresia is married to a Habsburg than her precedence is still valid, and probably it would not be questioned. If there would be any struggle for the Spanish throne it would be among her descendents, and not Margaret's ones.

[Susano]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

But I think that IOTL the claim of the throne went to the descendents of Margaret Theresia (you're right, if they could not choose other family to marry they could at least choose some new names!) because Maria Theresia's line was excluded from the succession, exactly in order to avoid a Bourbon becoming king. If Maria Theresia is married to a Habsburg than her precedence is still valid, and probably it would not be questioned. If there would be any struggle for the Spanish throne it would be among her descendents, and not Margaret's ones.

Well, France argued that Maria Tehresia wasnt exluded because her dowry wasnt paid, and as much as I hate to agree with capetian positions, they had a point. My point is it doesnt matter who has the most senior claim _ France and teh Sea Powers will simply discard any claims untilthey reach a non-Habsburg claim, sine simply NOBODY wants an unified Habsburg. Its not legal, its not by the rules, but they simply wont care.

Also, any comments on my other newest War of teh Spanish Succession thread?

[Archangel]

I feel that in case Catherine of Braganza marries Louis XIV of France, the dowry will probably be some Indic possessions like Bombay (as it happened in OTL with the marriage of Catherine of Braganza with Charles II) or other parts of Portuguese India, or parts of Mozambique or even other remaining possessions there (in the Indic Ocean), and/or any Portuguese held Moroccan cities (just a symbolic gift like in OTL to the British – no real interest for France there, IMO).

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Also, who could be married to Charles II, and maybe continue the rule of the House of Stuart?

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

BTW, any idea for an alternative wife to Charles II? Catherine had no sisters, so another Portuguese princess is impossible.

As for an ATL wife for Charles II: perhaps a protestant German princess?
Thande, what’s your opinion as a British?

Originally Posted by ImperialVienna

Well Philippe II, the Duke of Orleans, is the most direct male candidate for the French Throne. Thus he would likely become Philippe V of France, and be succeeded by his son as Louis XV, and would likely have a stable succeessive male line after that. As to whom Maria Theresa would marry I haven't the foggiest. For Leopold she would be too old, so perhaps Alfonso IV of Modena or Ferdinand Maria, the Elector of Bavaria?

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Both interesting candidates. Ferdinand Maria would mean the union between Spain and Bavaria. But Alfonso would mean the D'Este, a minor Italian noble family, becoming kings of one of the most important countries in Europe. Also, it would add more lands to the Spanish territories in Italy.

Maria Theresa could marry into some Italian or Catholic German family, like ImperialVienna suggests. With whom will she marry between those possibilities, it would depend on what would serve the interests of the Spanish Kings.

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Now is Louis XIV who would probably suffer the fate of Charles II and never have children (it would have interesting consequences when the Spanish Habsburgs die out).

I agree with ImperialVienna. Philippe II, the Duke of Orleans would be the next French King.
This ATL Spanish Sucession will be probably between the Austrian Habsburgs and whatever family marries Maria Theresa, assuming they are not vassals of the Habsburgs.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Susano

Well, France argued that Maria Tehresia wasnt exluded because her dowry wasnt paid, and as much as I hate to agree with capetian positions, they had a point. My point is it doesnt matter who has the most senior claim _ France and teh Sea Powers will simply discard any claims untilthey reach a non-Habsburg claim, sine simply NOBODY wants an unified Habsburg. Its not legal, its not by the rules, but they simply wont care.

Agreed. But I still think that in such case (Maria Theresia marrying Leopold) the struggle for the power would be probably among Maria Theresia's children (unless, of course, her children die in infancy, something not so difficult, as IOTL from her 06 children only the Dauphin Louis survived childhood).

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Archangel

As for an ATL wife for Charles II: perhaps a protestant German princess?
Thande, what’s your opinion as a British?

While Parliament would probably like that, I don't know if Charles himself would. He was a secret Catholic, after all, and generally resisted attempts to move the country back towards full-leaded Protestantism.

OTOH, there is the OTL connection between the Stuarts and the Palatinate.

(BTW, it's Briton)

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Thande

OTOH, there is the OTL connection between the Stuarts and the Palatinate.

The problem with the Palatinate is that the only daughter of Charles, Elector Palatine, was born in 1552, and she would be too young to marry Charles II around 1662. Of course, he could marry later, but I'm not sure if it would be considered good to the monarchy.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

The problem with the Palatinate is that the only daughter of Charles, Elector Palatine, was born in 1552, and she would be too young to marry Charles II around 1662. Of course, he could marry later, but I'm not sure if it would be considered good to the monarchy.

Yeah, they would probably want an earlier marriage - even back then, I think there was an "Anyone but James" party at Westminster, and there would be pressure to get an heir. (Also to ensure a succession against any remnants of the republican movement, of course).

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Thande

Yeah, they would probably want an earlier marriage - even back then, I think there was an "Anyone but James" party at Westminster, and there would be pressure to get an heir. (Also to ensure a succession against any remnants of the republican movement, of course).

Well, if Charles II decides for a Catholic, and not being from Portugal, the future queen might be a French one. Louis XIV didn't have sisters, but he had many female cousins from his uncle Gaston, Duke of Orleans. Also, there were the sisters of the Duke of Savoy, who were also cousins of Louis XIV.