Yamamoto is placed in charge of the attack on Pearl Harbor

bard32

Banned
All right, switching gears. WI Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto is placed in charge of
the attack on Pearl Harbor instead of Chuichi Nagumo? Why? Because Yamamoto was an advocate of air power, and Nagumo, like Spruance, was
a surface ship commander, in charge of battleships, cruisers, and destroyers.
What would Yamamoto have done differently? Would he have attacked the carriers, if they were at Pearl Harbor, which, fortunately for us, they weren't.
Would he have attacked the drydocks and five million barrels of oil? Would he
have sunk our carriers? I would appreciate your thoughts. That's the plot of the
new Newt Gingrich-William R. Fortschen alternate history novel Days of Infamy, which is the sequel to their previous alternate history novel, Pearl Harbor.
 
I think the oil storage was a target, but would have been in the next wave, and the commander thought it too risky to land the planes, refuel and rearm and launch another wave.

The Japanese didn't know where the carriers were and didn't have radar in the fleet.
 
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but didn't Nagumo follow Yamamoto's plan? Sure, he didn't launch the 3rd strike, but he didn't believe that they had time for it.
 

bard32

Banned
I think the oil storage was a target, but would have been in the next wave, and the commander thought it too risky to land the planes, refuel and rearm and launch another wave.

The Japanese didn't know where the carriers were and didn't have radar in the fleet.

I'm aware of that. The Japanese had a huge pair of binoculars known as "battleship binoculars." The carriers, Enterprise, Saratoga, and Lexington,
were all away from Pearl Harbor. Enterprise was at Midway, Lexington was at
Wake Island, and Saratoga was in San Diego, after a refit in Washington State.
My point is that the Japanese failed to take out the oil storage tanks, the drydocks, and the carriers. The raison d'artre for Midway was to take out the
American carriers.
 
That just means that the Japanese could have gotten away without a carrier attack, not that their own information had changed whatsoever. There's also the matter of forces on the island rallying at last, which would also bear consideration before taking an even bigger gamble than already had happened.
 

bard32

Banned
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but didn't Nagumo follow Yamamoto's plan? Sure, he didn't launch the 3rd strike, but he didn't believe that they had time for it.

Yes, he did. But according to Newt Gingrich, who's a former history professor,
Nagumo was the wrong man for the job. He was a surface ship commander.
He wasn't a carrier admiral. Nagumo's entire forty-four year career in the IJN
was in surface ships. Yamamoto was an advocate of air power. He was like
Billy Mitchell in this country. Unfortunately for us, Billy Mitchell proved to be a
Cassandra. Yamamoto changed the Japanese battle plan. We, unfortunately,
didn't change ours.
 
I'm aware of that. The Japanese had a huge pair of binoculars known as "battleship binoculars." The carriers, Enterprise, Saratoga, and Lexington,
were all away from Pearl Harbor. Enterprise was at Midway, Lexington was at
Wake Island, and Saratoga was in San Diego, after a refit in Washington State.
My point is that the Japanese failed to take out the oil storage tanks, the drydocks, and the carriers. The raison d'artre for Midway was to take out the
American carriers.

We all know that the Japanese failed to take out the American's oil, drydocks, and the carriers. IMHO Yamamato being placed in command of the Japanese fleet would have made little difference, especially since Nagumo followed Yamamato's plan.

So what's the POD for this? Do the Japanese launch the much vaunted 3rd wave attack or something?
 
Again, none of which changes the fundamental desion-maker, the lack of information on the carrier's presence and the wearing off of the surprise attack. You have yet to suggest any such reason why Yamamoto would conclude the exact same way. Nagumo may have been a surface-power man, but no one has indicated what actual mistakes he may have made.
 

MrP

Banned
Yes, he did. But according to Newt Gingrich, who's a former history professor,
Nagumo was the wrong man for the job. He was a surface ship commander.
He wasn't a carrier admiral. Nagumo's entire forty-four year career in the IJN
was in surface ships. Yamamoto was an advocate of air power. He was like
Billy Mitchell in this country. Unfortunately for us, Billy Mitchell proved to be a
Cassandra. Yamamoto changed the Japanese battle plan. We, unfortunately,
didn't change ours.

I'm vaguely suspicious of Billy Mitchell. He demonstrated nothing more than that a ship that wasn't in any way defending itself could easily be bombed by aircraft. Then he got all narked that few others came up with the wrong idea that aeroplanes would be the be all and end all of naval power from that day, when it'd actually take yonks. He was on the right lines, but his expectations exceeded any reasonable assumption of technological progress.
 

bard32

Banned
We all know that the Japanese failed to take out the American's oil, drydocks, and the carriers. IMHO Yamamato being placed in command of the Japanese fleet would have made little difference, especially since Nagumo followed Yamamato's plan.

So what's the POD for this? Do the Japanese launch the much vaunted 3rd wave attack or something?

The POD would probably be when Hirohito sent Yamamoto to sea to save his
life. All our carriers would still be away from Pearl Harbor. The History Channel's series on the USS Enterprise, said that the Enterprise was supposed to be in Pearl Harbor on the morning of December 7, 1941. Why wasn't she?
The weather. Enterprise was caught in a storm the night of December 6th.
So let's make the POD December 6th, instead of November 26th, 1941.
 

bard32

Banned
We all know that the Japanese failed to take out the American's oil, drydocks, and the carriers. IMHO Yamamato being placed in command of the Japanese fleet would have made little difference, especially since Nagumo followed Yamamato's plan.

So what's the POD for this? Do the Japanese launch the much vaunted 3rd wave attack or something?

The POD would probably be when Hirohito sent Yamamoto to sea to save his
life. All our carriers would still be away from Pearl Harbor. The History Channel's series on the USS Enterprise, said that the Enterprise was supposed to be in Pearl Harbor on the morning of December 7, 1941. Why wasn't she?
The weather. Enterprise was caught in a storm the night of December 6th.
So let's make the POD December 6th, instead of November 26th, 1941. The answer to your question is yes. Yamamoto was a gambler. In fact, I heard on an A&E biography of him that he was fairly good poker player.
 
To put some coherence into the thread, rather than jumbled parroting, here's a point to consider.

Japan blows up the fuel stored on Hawaii.

So what? Fuel was constantly being shipped to the islands, and the tankers can simply act as temporary storage until the new supplies match the old. It's not as if the US is going to be launching the entire navy of a trans-oceanic invasion anyways.
 
So what? Fuel was constantly being shipped to the islands, and the tankers can simply act as temporary storage until the new supplies match the old. It's not as if the US is going to be launching the entire navy of a trans-oceanic invasion anyways.

Exactly; even if the whole Pearl Harbor Naval Base was out of action, the fleet could use Lahaina Roads as an anchorage and tank up from oilers used as temporary storage. That's assuming the Japanese would manage to destroy the oil storage facilities completely; a more difficult task than it might seem.

If the drydocks were left unusuable, floating drydocks could be towed in. Overall, I doubt that, even if really crippling damage was done to the base, it would be out of action for more than a few months and Lahaina Roads anchorage would do the job of filling in quite well.

Then there's the problem of Third Wave losses........
 

bard32

Banned
Exactly; even if the whole Pearl Harbor Naval Base was out of action, the fleet could use Lahaina Roads as an anchorage and tank up from oilers used as temporary storage. That's assuming the Japanese would manage to destroy the oil storage facilities completely; a more difficult task than it might seem.

If the drydocks were left unusuable, floating drydocks could be towed in. Overall, I doubt that, even if really crippling damage was done to the base, it would be out of action for more than a few months and Lahaina Roads anchorage would do the job of filling in quite well.

Then there's the problem of Third Wave losses........

I forgot to mention that the Pacific Fleet would have been out of commission for six months if the oil tanks were taken out.
 
I forgot to mention that the Pacific Fleet would have been out of commission for six months if the oil tanks were taken out.

Considering it was mostly resting at the bottom of the harbor I'd say that almost all of the fleet it was already out of commission with the OTL attack...

Sure, they raised the ships, but raising a destroyer or battleship from the harbor floor is a little harder than raising some small patrol boat from the harbor floor.
 

bard32

Banned
I'm vaguely suspicious of Billy Mitchell. He demonstrated nothing more than that a ship that wasn't in any way defending itself could easily be bombed by aircraft. Then he got all narked that few others came up with the wrong idea that aeroplanes would be the be all and end all of naval power from that day, when it'd actually take yonks. He was on the right lines, but his expectations exceeded any reasonable assumption of technological progress.

Billy Mitchell, using World War I era Martin MB-2 bombers, showed that the
battleship was obsolete. The battleship was also proven to be obsolete at
Taranto and Pearl Harbor.
 

MrP

Banned
Billy Mitchell, using World War I era Martin MB-2 bombers, showed that the
battleship was obsolete. The battleship was also proven to be obsolete at
Taranto and Pearl Harbor.

Bah, humbug! :p

Billy Mitchell did nothing of the sort. He was a visionary, certainly, but he certainly didn't prove that. Taranto and Pearl Harbour demonstrate the value of bold surprise attacks, and the danger in a fleet in harbour is under when aircraft attack. If the USN carriers had been at Pearl and been sunk, that would no more have proved them obsolete than the events of OTL "proved" the battleship obsolete. The days of the big guns were numbered, but they weren't over. That's a common misconception caused by people going from "Wahey for big guns!" to "Wahey for bombs!" without stopping to think which is appropriate for a particular scenario. Incidentally, the battleship was a viable AA defence platform for carrier groups long after it lost its status as ultimate arbiter of naval combat.
 

bard32

Banned
Considering it was mostly resting at the bottom of the harbor I'd say that almost all of the fleet it was already out of commission with the OTL attack...

Sure, they raised the ships, but raising a destroyer or battleship from the harbor floor is a little harder than raising some small patrol boat from the harbor floor.

Don't forget refloating the beached Nevada. By the end of December, most of
the ships, including the California, were raised from the bottom of Pearl Harbor. Plus, the Pennsylvania was in drydock. With the exception of the Oklahoma, Arizona, and Ogalalla, not all the ships were able to be salvaged.
Then there were the carriers. They weren't in Pearl Harbor at the time which
was what enabled us to rebuild around the carriers.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
There are two different, very distinct, issues here. The first is, of course, Yamamoto being in actually command of the Kido Butai, with the second, the possibility of a third strike on Pearl Harbor, being an entirely separate matter.

One of the major misconceptions that surround Yamamoto is his "gambler" mentality. This actually is not a proper image of the man. He was a man of considerable earthly pleasures, when off duty, but a reckless gambler he was not. He was a poker player, which, if done well, in not so much gambling as evaluation of the other players. The Admiral was a very good poker player, one trait of successful professional card players (and Yamamoto, who supported a lifestyle far beyond his pay grade with poker winning, certainly qualifies a a pro) is that they actually never gamble; they play percentages. The percentages at Pearl Harbor had already been exceeded, the Kido Butai had suffered very light losses in personnel (although roughly 1 in 4 aircraft available before the battle began had been rendered Hors de Combat (29 actually shot down and around 75 have suffered significant battle damage, most in the second wave). The operational requirements for the mission were fully achieved, surprise was well & truly lost, and there were three American carriers unaccounted for (including Enterprise which was close enough that a flight of her SBD's actually arrived during the attacks, resulting in several being shot down blue-on-blue), it was a good time to cash in and leave the table. While, in hindsight, Yamamoto stated that Nagumo had missed an opportunity, at the time he supported Nagumo's choice. Every good card player knows when to call it a night.

Yamamoto MIGHT have pushed a third strike, but his actions would likely have been the same as Nagumo's. While certainly a planner of some vision, and even more a good listener to his staff, Yamamoto never exercised direct command of the Kido Butai during the war. His actions at Midway, where he initially ordered that the invasion proceed according to the original Plan, even after all four fleet carriers had been sunk; not instructing the amphibious forces to wait for the Combined Fleet to reach direct support positions, or even detaching the heavy escorts that had been shepherding the now lost carriers to support CruDiv 7 in their bombardment tasks shows clearly that he was not incapable of making a poor decision (truthfully, the entire Midway Operation is indicative of this). Moreover, as will be discussed, the decision to retire was NOT as poor as some believe.

The American base, while seriously damaged, was not entirely supine, not even close. While the fighter defenses had been seriously degraded, there were still better than 40 fighters (including 27 P-40) fully operational. The Army AAA batteries, all 31 of them were manned and armed (in the initial waves, only four of these batteries had been able to get into action), while the remaining American vessels in harbor were either fully manned and ready for trouble, or they were about to sortie. In the second wave, the Japanese had lost 20 aircraft and had suffered an additional 60 or so mission kills, this was while the confusion from the initial attack was still at full bellow. The Pearl Harbor defenses would have had several HOURS to have gotten back (or initially) into action, since the Japanese would have had to refuel and rearm the entire strike package before it could be launched. With the edginess of the AAA crews (who shot down a number of AMERICAN aircraft) the fully alerted nature of the surviving fighters (an interesting potential fight would have been the obsolete P-26 vs the equally obsolescent Val & Kate) the third wave would have had a very tough sled.

Had the third wave lost 40 or so aircraft, along with around 80 mission kills (or 120 airframes, just slightly worse than had happened in the second wave), it would have knocked at least one carrier, probably two, out of the war for months, as can been seen in how long it took Zuikaku to reconstitute her wing after Coral Sea. The operational loss of one or two decks could have had some interesting byproducts in the war's opening weeks, starting at Wake, and continuing into the Indian Ocean operations of April 1942.

The Japanese Navy only began to see it as a lost chance when the reversals of May & June of 1942 occurred, until then Pearl Harbor had been seen as an unqualified success (save the poor luck of missing the carriers). Moreover, in the long run, even the total devastation of Pearl Harbor would have altered the end of the Pacific War not a whit.

BTW: Enterprise was on the way back from delivering aircraft to Wake, while Lexington was around 400 miles from Pearl delivering aircraft to Midway.
 
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