Islam extinguished

Tyr

We get a lot of 'WI no Islam' about here but beyond the rantings of right wing nut cases we don't really get anything where Islam rises then vanishes.

Thinking about it though...This seems like it could well happen.
Islam was a bit of a odd religion in that its very founding and spread was directly linked in with the Arab empire. Unlike christianity, judaism and buddhism which mostly moved within the established nations Islam was from the very start creating not just a new religion but a new political situation.

So...Where could we best get Islam wither away? It can still be followed by a few Arabs in Arabia but beyond that it should be removed.
The POD must of course come post 750 (i.e. once the Umayyad's have done their thing)
 

Chengar Qordath

Analytical Engine said:
That would affect Asian Muslims... Not so much the ones in North Africa...

Unless you have a Christian-Mongol alliance of doom(TM)... :eek::eek::eek::eek:

How about uber-Christian Mongols? :confused:
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We could always see some crusades directed their way; several of the later Crusades went after Egypt in OTL, and IIRC there were a few efforts against Tunisia and Tripoli as well. The Spanish and Portugese also showed some interest in continuing the Reconquista into North Africa.
 

rcduggan

Well, in the Mongol invasion, 90% of the population of Persia was killed (2,500,000 was reduced to 250,000), and mosques were replaced with Buddhist temples throughout Persia. Based solely on these facts, it is a miracle at all that Islam survived in Persia. So just have the Mongols be even more brutal, not just in Persia but the rest of the Muslim world too. If they kill a larger part of the population, Islam probably would never recover, gradually being supplanted by Buddhism or Christianity.
 

bard32

Banned
There'd have to be no Mohammed in order for there to be no Islam. In order
for there to be no Islam, there'd have to be a POD before 570 AD. Mohammed
would either have to be 1, not born, or 2, his mother would have to die in childbirth. What's 3? 3's waaaaaaaay out there. Mohammed would have to be
abducted by a UFO and taken to the planet Itana. :D
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
rcduggan said:
Well, in the Mongol invasion, 90% of the population of Persia was killed (2,500,000 was reduced to 250,000), and mosques were replaced with Buddhist temples throughout Persia. Based solely on these facts, it is a miracle at all that Islam survived in Persia. So just have the Mongols be even more brutal, not just in Persia but the rest of the Muslim world too. If they kill a larger part of the population, Islam probably would never recover, gradually being supplanted by Buddhism or Christianity.
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Well, the oldest Muslim community in the world, after that in the Arabian peninsula itself, is in Ethiopia (dating to 615 CE). The Mongols never ruled Ethiopia, and you'd need a POD in Arabia prior t o 615 CE in order to extinguish Islam, or in Arabia and Ethiopia prior to 632 CE. After the Islamic conquests, Islam is pretty much around to stay, although it could certainly be drastically reduced in size and influence due to war, famine, disease, or some combination of the above.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Leo Caesius said:
Well, the oldest Muslim community in the world, after that in the Arabian peninsula itself, is in Ethiopia (dating to 615 CE). The Mongols never ruled Ethiopia, and you'd need a POD in Arabia prior t o 615 CE in order to extinguish Islam, or in Arabia and Ethiopia prior to 632 CE. After the Islamic conquests, Islam is pretty much around to stay, although it could certainly be drastically reduced in size and influence due to war, famine, disease, or some combination of the above.
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By the time of the Mongols it had also spread into Indonesia and beyond.

Also, the Mongols didn't give a rat's ass what religion people followed - they weren't in the business of trying to extinguish anything, they just wanted to rule it all.
 
Sargon

Sargon

Donor
Monthly Donor
Mohammed could have a vision of Christ or something instead. That's been done in published fiction before...in Agent of Byzantium he becomes an Orthodox saint. Jolly good book that. No Islam, a stronger and more extensive Roman Empire, and a continued Persian Empire.


Sargon
 

Tyr

Mongols are a bit generic.
And I don't think it'd work anyway even assuming the ASBs do decide to make them into Nazi-Crusaders. They wouldn't be able to conquer the Arabs- Arabia isn't partiuclarly known as ideal massed horse terrain.


As for messing with Mohammed- yeah no Islam has been done to death. What I'm wondering about here is not NO Islam but Islam just being some weird cult which rose for a few hundred years scaring the world half to death then withered away again.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
rcduggan said:
If Alexander conquered Arabia, Islam as we know it would be butterflied away.
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That's possibly true, but it's a bit like swatting a fly with a sledgehammer.

A certain school of thought holds that Alexander sneezing to the left rather than the right while on campaign would butterfly everything subsequent (including Islam) away. For my money, I'd have to ask what Alexander does in Arabia, exactly. Does he just invade and declare victory? It's extremely hard to "conquer" nomads without settling them somewhere or colonizing their territory (and the latter is probably not in the cards for the Macedonians). So, either he invades and leaves with no discernable effect on subsequent history, or he deliberately tries to settle the pre-Arabs and Hellenize Arabia. If that's the case, we might well see something like Islam much earlier (since Islam is very much a product of the encounter of traditional Near Eastern religions like Judaism with Hellenic thought - like Christianity and Second Temple Judaism).
 

Broz

why would islam butterfly away if someone conquered arabia 700 years earlier?
how would that stop the annoing millenial trend of midleastren monoteism?
would that buttefly away gnosticks and quasy-christian sects?
and aniway why put so much importance on a single religion? for ewery religion that suceeds theres 10 exactly alike that fail for reasons not ewen important enough to be noticed... butterflyed away as it is said
so for ewery muhammed theres another 10 men in mid-life chrisis going out for some alone time in the desert and talking to some god or other
as the nature of any given religion is dictated by the cultural backround in wich it emerges any hipotetical arabic monoteism would look much the same, just as any hipotetical hebrew monoteism looks basically the same

on the other hand the unification of arabian tribes was a pattern seen many times in asia, with many numerous ethnick groups devided in tribes, wich, once united, would amass huge military potential and quickly expand to other territories
granted islam gave them a kind of cultural homogeny but any other ready-made monoteism could do much the same
 

MerryPrankster

Here's an idea:

In the aftermath of Mohammed's death, there were a series of wars called the Riddah, where several Arab tribes rebelled against Mohammed's successors.

Had they been successful, Islam would not have lasted much longer than its founder.
 

Keenir

Banned
Broz said:
as the nature of any given religion is dictated by the cultural backround in wich it emerges any hipotetical arabic monoteism would look much the same, just as any hipotetical hebrew monoteism looks basically the same
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you wanna tell a Sarmatian that his faith is identical to that of an Essene, a Zealot, and a Domne?
 

strangeland

rcduggan said:
Well, in the Mongol invasion, 90% of the population of Persia was killed (2,500,000 was reduced to 250,000), and mosques were replaced with Buddhist temples throughout Persia. Based solely on these facts, it is a miracle at all that Islam survived in Persia. So just have the Mongols be even more brutal, not just in Persia but the rest of the Muslim world too. If they kill a larger part of the population, Islam probably would never recover, gradually being supplanted by Buddhism or Christianity.
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sorry, but can you cite a source for this? Yes the Mongols killes A LOT of people in Persia, but not 90%. If that were the case, the Persians would have gone the way of the Aztecs, Caribs, and Tainos; no civilization can survive that level of slaughter. Also, the Mongols at this phase were NOT Buddhist: they were Shamanists, and the Ilkhans had converted to Islam within a few generations of the conquest.
 
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