Italy switches sides during the Great War

Hnau

Banned
How could you have it so that Italy joins the Central Powers against the Entente early in the war (after the evidence of successful offensives in other theatres), but by mid-1915, swtiches sides to fight against the Central Powers?
 

Tom_B

Hnau said:
How could you have it so that Italy joins the Central Powers against the Entente early in the war (after the evidence of successful offensives in other theatres), but by mid-1915, swtiches sides to fight against the Central Powers?
Click to expand...

One thing that might cause this is Italy would need a great deal of coal from Germany and would be able to get only a fraction of what it needs by rail.
 

Broz

no way

irredentismo? ring a bell? istra, dalmacia, veneto?
why would two monarchies engaged in a violent dispute ower large portions of strategically important teritorry ewer enter in a large war on the same sides?

olnly if by some bizare chance italy gave austria some part of previously conquered africa, in exchange for dalmacia and istria, but that is practically apsurd

no really italy and austria hated each other
 

hircus

Hnau said:
How could you have it so that Italy joins the Central Powers against the Entente early in the war (after the evidence of successful offensives in other theatres), but by mid-1915, switches sides to fight against the Central Powers?
Click to expand...

IIRC, The Austro-Hungarian offensive against Russia was a disaster, the faster-than-expected arrival of the Russian army pushed them back and proceeded to invade East Prussia, which led to parts of the German army redirected to the Eastern front, leading to the failure of the Schlieffen plan.

For Italy to first join the war on the Allies' side, clearly the Schlieffen plan must still fail. So let's keep the Russian invasion of the German hinterlands. But what if, in 1915, the Germans decided to have a second go in the western front, reduce their presence in the East, and launch a successful attack in the West? The Austro-Hungary armies get beaten by the Russians again, leading them to acquisce to Italy's demands of Venice, Tyrol and the Dalmatian coast in exchange for a switch.

Mind you, in this scenario it might be the Germans' intentions all along -- intentionally let their Austrian allies get clobbered in order to force them to accept Italy's entrance. Rather Bismarckian.
 

Codae

MrP said:
In what way is this a DBWI? :confused: Italy didn't declare war on the Entente, then change her mind IOTL.
Click to expand...

Sorry for my laziness. I knew Italy had been aligned with the Triple Alliance before the war, and ended up on the Entente's side, but didn't bother to look up the full situation.
 

Geordie

The only way that I can see such a scenario happening is as follows:

Pressured by Berlin, Vienna offers territorial concessions to Italy in order to get them firmly in their camp in 1914. This happened in OTL, but Rome rejected their overtures.

PoD: Either the Italians accept the offer, or rebuff it, and are offered more (which they then accept). Added German pressure on one or both parties could explain this change to OTL.

This would obviously not amount to all the irredentist claims on Austria-Hungary, but is enough to sway Rome. Also, they can keep Corsica, Haute Savoy, Nice and some African colonies (I'm thinking Tunisia at least) once they have helped to beat the French.

From here on:

1. Italy attacks France. They are badly mauled in the Alps, and make little headway in Africa. The Royal and French Navies defeat the Italian and Austro-Hungarian fleet. Either:
  • An invasion of Italy occurs (possibly using commonwealth troops - no Gallipoli? - or Algerians).
  • An uprising replaces the government with a pro-Entente one .
  • The government sues for peace.
The cowed Italians are then 'persuaded' by their new allies to attack Austria, being promised the rest of their claims against Vienna (or the ones witheld if those promised were to be exchanged at the end of the war).


2. Italy attacks France and acheives some, or all, of its goals. Somehow France is still fighting in the North ITTL. Italy agrees a swift treaty and then turns upon Austria to get even more out of the war.


Number two isn't exactly likely, as it assumes that Italy can defeat France, yet France will still be standing against stronger opposition in the Germans. Also, the situation in Flanders has to be good enough for the Entente that swapping sides seems a good move for Italy. Of course, if this front is going so well, why don't they send some men south?


It seems #2 isn't exactly do-able, but something could possibly be made from #1.
 

Canis Lupus

Codae said:
Sorry for my laziness. I knew Italy had been aligned with the Triple Alliance before the war, and ended up on the Entente's side, but didn't bother to look up the full situation.
Click to expand...
Italy was indeed a part of the Central Powers, but when the war broke out, Italy made up a bunch of reasons to stay neutral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_in_World_War_I

From neutrality to the intervention in the war
Although its official status as member of the the Triple Alliance (1882) together with Germany and Austria-Hungary, in the years before the outbreak of the conflict the Italian government had enhanced its diplomatic efforts towards United Kingdom and France. This because the Italian government had grown convinced that a support to Austria (which had been also the traditional enemy of Italy during the 19th century Risorgimento) would not grant to Italy the lands the country was aiming to for its territorial expansion: Trieste, Istria, Zara and Dalmatia were all Austrian possessions. In fact, a secret agreement signed with France in 1902 practically nullified Italy's membership in the Triple Alliance.
A few days after the outbreak of the conflict, on August 3, 1914, the government, led by the conservative Antonio Salandra, declared that Italy would not commit its troops, maintaining that the Triple Alliance had only a defensive stance, whereas Austria-Hungary had been the aggressor. In reality, both Salandra and the minister of Foreign Affairs, Sidney Sonnino, started diplomatic activities to probe which side was ready to grant the best reward for Italy's entrance in the war. Although the majority of the cabinet (including former Prime Minister Giovanni Giolitti) was firmly contrary to the intervention, numerous intellectuals, including socialists such as Ivanoe Bonomi, Leonida Bissolati and Benito Mussolini, declared in favour of the intervention, which was then mostly supported by the Nationalist and the Liberal parties.
The diplomatic moves led to the London Pact (April 26, 1915), signed by Sonnino without the approval of the Italian Parliament. By the Pact, in case of victory Italy was to be given Trento and its territory up to the Brenner Pass, the cities of Gorizia, Trieste and Gradisca d'Isonzo, Istria (but not Fiume) and part of Dalmatia. Other agreements concerned the sovereignty of the port of Valona, the province of Antalya in Turkey and part of the German colonies in Africa.
Germany and Austria had offered only part of the Trentino and Friuli, without Gorizia and Trieste. The offer of the French colony of Tunisia was deemed unsatisfactory.
In April 1915 Italy joined the Entente and on May 3, 1915 officially rejected the Triple Alliance. In the following days Giolitti and the neutralist majority of the Parliament fought to keep Italy out of the conflict, while the nationalists demonstrated in the squares in favour of entrance into the war (the nationalist poet Gabriele D'Annunzio defined them le radiose giornate di Maggio - "the sunny days of May"). On May 13 Salandra presented his resignation to King Victor Emmanuel III. Giolitti, fearful of a further blow to governing institutions, declined to succeed as prime minister and also resigned. Italy thenceforth entered the war under the impetus of a relative minority of its population and politicians.
Click to expand...

It sounds to me that Long term animosity with Austria and the Desire to get the most terriotry, and the fact that it was the Entente that offered that was the main reason that Italy entered the war on the side that it did.
Opprotunisim at it's finest, IMHO.
 
Last edited:

bard32

Banned
Hnau said:
How could you have it so that Italy joins the Central Powers against the Entente early in the war (after the evidence of successful offensives in other theatres), but by mid-1915, swtiches sides to fight against the Central Powers?
Click to expand...

Italy was a member of the Central Powers until 1915. Maybe put Mussolini in
prison for the duration of the war.
 
MrP

MrP

Banned
Codae said:
Sorry for my laziness. I knew Italy had been aligned with the Triple Alliance before the war, and ended up on the Entente's side, but didn't bother to look up the full situation.
Click to expand...

Ah, no worries, old man. But even WWI teaching over here isn't that bad. Don't let it happen again. ;) :)

bard32 said:
Maybe put Mussolini in prison for the duration of the war.
Click to expand...

What? :confused:
 

Codae

MrP said:
Ah, no worries, old man. But even WWI teaching over here isn't that bad. Don't let it happen again. ;) :)



What? :confused:
Click to expand...

Basically, what we learned was "Europe got organized into two armed camps: the Triple Entente (Great Britain, France, and Russia) and the Triple Alliance (Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy). Then a Serbian terrorist assassinated the Austrian Archduke Ferdinand, and Austria-Hungary attacked Serbia. Because Russia and Serbia were both Orthodox, Russia mobilized, so Germany declared war on Russia and France, invading the latter through neutral Belgium. Because of this, Great Britain declared war on Germany. Somewhere along the line, Italy switched sides, and the Ottoman Empire joined with Germany and Austria-Hungary to form the Central Powers. When Germany sank the British liner Lusitania with Americans on board, the USA joined the Allies. In the meantime, big battles were being fought along the front that resulted in very little movement. Finally, the Allies won, and the Treaty of Versailles set up Europe for World War II. By the way, Japan was one of the Allies."

We also discussed trench warfare.
 
MrP

MrP

Banned
Codae said:
Basically, what we learned was "Europe got organized into two armed camps: the Triple Entente (Great Britain, France, and Russia) and the Triple Alliance (Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy). Then a Serbian terrorist assassinated the Austrian Archduke Ferdinand, and Austria-Hungary attacked Serbia. Because Russia and Serbia were both Orthodox, Russia mobilized, so Germany declared war on Russia and France, invading the latter through neutral Belgium. Because of this, Great Britain declared war on Germany. Somewhere along the line, Italy switched sides, and the Ottoman Empire joined with Germany and Austria-Hungary to form the Central Powers. When Germany sank the British liner Lusitania with Americans on board, the USA joined the Allies. In the meantime, big battles were being fought along the front that resulted in very little movement. Finally, the Allies won, and the Treaty of Versailles set up Europe for World War II. By the way, Japan was one of the Allies."

We also discussed trench warfare.
Click to expand...

We learned about source analysis. Everything else was garnish. Flavourless garnish, too, but there you go. ;)

It was so bad that for years I believed WWI was a boring war. :( :mad: :eek:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top