Go Back   Alternate History Discussion Board > Discussion > Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 26th, 2008, 04:32 PM
NomadicSky NomadicSky is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 𐐏𐐅𐐓𐐃
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via Yahoo to NomadicSky
Modern English without Norman French influence

Any ideas on what English would sound/look like in the 21 century?

And what would the culture be like?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old April 26th, 2008, 04:51 PM
Fellatio Nelson Fellatio Nelson is offline
Tal, tywyll a gyda pants ar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Paedogeddon, Cymru
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via MSN to Fellatio Nelson
Quoi?

........
__________________
Fy merlen bach - nid yw'n arferol i oedolion
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old April 26th, 2008, 04:57 PM
Susano Susano is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Knigstein im Taunus
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via ICQ to Susano Send a message via AIM to Susano Send a message via MSN to Susano
For starters, it wouldnt be English, but Anglosaxon. English is the result of Anglosaxon-Norman synthesis, without the Norman invasion theres hence no England and no English.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old April 26th, 2008, 04:58 PM
Thande Thande is offline
Ambassador in Chains
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: An AndyC Timeline (formerly OTL)
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susano View Post
For starters, it wouldnt be English, but Anglosaxon. English is the result of Anglosaxon-Norman synthesis, without the Norman invasion theres hence no England and no English.
Well, technically it would be English, because Anglo-Saxon was just called "Englisc" at the time. But that's pedantry

There was an England (or Englaland) before the Normans, it was just not the same country as the England of 1500 or today.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old April 26th, 2008, 05:14 PM
condor condor is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Wakefield, Yorkshire
Posts: 419
I'd imagine that accents would generally sound a little harsher, probably more akin to a Yorkshire or Geordie accent, and there would probably be more general similarities to the scandinavian languages.

With any luck people would still use s, s and a few s for good measure. I'd be quite disappointed if they didn't.


Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old April 26th, 2008, 05:17 PM
rcduggan rcduggan is offline
大元帅
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New England Democratic Republic
Posts: 1000 or more
It would probably remain very similar to the Anglo-Saxon language. There wouldn't be an ~60% French- or Latin-derived vocabulary either.
__________________
Currently planning: "All who want revolution, step to the Left." -- Liao Zhongkai's China
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old April 26th, 2008, 06:30 PM
Theodoric Theodoric is online now
Taxman
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zuiderzeeland
Posts: 1000 or more
It would be very similar to Frisian, but with a bit more Low German (Saxon) influences.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old April 26th, 2008, 06:35 PM
bard32 bard32 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 910
Probably more like German. The Anglo-Saxons, who'd invaded Britain during the Migration Period, spoke German.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old April 26th, 2008, 06:52 PM
Theodoric Theodoric is online now
Taxman
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zuiderzeeland
Posts: 1000 or more
Na-ah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvaeonic
Back then, there was no single 'German', but a dialect continuum. Current German is High-German, while Englisc was more related to Low German (Saxon) and Frisian. Now, if you'd said 'West Germanic' instead of 'German', you would be correct, but you aren't.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old April 26th, 2008, 06:57 PM
Hendryk Hendryk is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: France
Posts: 1000 or more
There was a Victorian philologist with an axe to grind, William Barnes, who tried to imagine what Saxon-derived equivalents the English language could use in lieu of French-, Latin- and Greek-descended words. For example, folkdom instead of democracy.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old April 26th, 2008, 07:10 PM
Theodoric Theodoric is online now
Taxman
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Zuiderzeeland
Posts: 1000 or more
Well, there's also the substantial Celtic element, ofcourse. There's a surprisingly large amount of Celtic influences. No wonder the English language has three to four synonyms for every damned word.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old April 26th, 2008, 07:10 PM
HueyLong HueyLong is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Cowering behind bodyguards
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poul Anderson
For most of its being, mankind did not know what things are made
of, but could only guess. With the growth of worldken, we began
to learn, and today we have a beholding of stuff and work that
watching bears out, both in the workstead and in daily life.

The underlying kinds of stuff are the *firststuffs*, which link
together in sundry ways to give rise to the rest. Formerly we
knew of ninety-two firststuffs, from waterstuff, the lightest and
barest, to ymirstuff, the heaviest. Now we have made more, such
as aegirstuff and helstuff.



The firststuffs have their being as motes called *unclefts*.
These are mightly small; one seedweight of waterstuff holds a
tale of them like unto two followed by twenty-two naughts. Most
unclefts link together to make what are called *bulkbits*. Thus,
the waterstuff bulkbit bestands of two waterstuff unclefts, the
sourstuff bulkbit of two sourstuff unclefts, and so on. (Some
kinds, such as sunstuff, keep alone; others, such as iron, cling
together in ices when in the fast standing; and there are yet
more yokeways.) When unlike clefts link in a bulkbit, they make
*bindings*. Thus, water is a binding of two waterstuff unclefts
with one sourstuff uncleft, while a bulkbit of one of the
forestuffs making up flesh may have a thousand thousand or more
unclefts of these two firststuffs together with coalstuff and

chokestuff.



At first is was thought that the uncleft was a hard thing that
could be split no further; hence the name. Now we know it is made
up of lesser motes. There is a heavy *kernel* with a forward
bernstonish lading, and around it one or more light motes with
backward ladings. The least uncleft is that of ordinary
waterstuff. Its kernel is a lone forwardladen mote called a
*firstbit*. Outside it is a backwardladen mote called a
*bernstonebit*. The firstbit has a heaviness about 1840-fold that
of the bernstonebit. Early worldken folk thought bernstonebits
swing around the kernel like the earth around the sun, but now we
understand they are more like waves or clouds.



In all other unclefts are found other motes as well, about as
heavy as the firstbit but with no lading, known as *neitherbits*.

We know a kind of waterstuff with one neitherbit in the kernel
along with the firstbit; another kind has two neitherbits. Both
kinds are seldom.



The next greatest firststuff is sunstuff, which has two firstbits
and two bernstonebits. The everyday sort also has two neitherbits
in the kernel. If there are more or less, the uncleft will soon
break asunder. More about this later.



The third firststuff is stonestuff, with three firstbits, three
bernstonebits, and its own share of neitherbits. And so it goes,
on through such everyday stuffs as coalstuff (six firstbits) or
iron (26) to ones more lately found. Ymirstuff (92) was the last
until men began to make some higher still.



It is the bernstonebits that link, and so their tale fastsets how
a firststuff behaves and what kinds of bulkbits it can help make.
The worldken of this behaving, in all its manifold ways, is
called *minglingken*. Minglingers have found that as the
uncleftish tale of the firststuffs (that is, the tale of
firststuffs in their kernels) waxes, after a while they begin to
show ownships not unlike those of others that went before them.
So, for a showdeal, stonestuff (3), glasswortstuff (11),
potashstuff (19), redstuff (37), and bluegraystuff (55) can each
link with only one uncleft of waterstuff, while coalstuff (6),
flintstuff (14), germanstuff (22), tin (50), and lead (82) can
each link with four. This is readily seen when all are set forth
in what is called the *roundaround board of the firststuffs*.

When an uncleft or a bulkbit wins one or more bernstonebits above
its own, it takes on a backward lading. When it loses one or
more, it takes on a forward lading. Such a mote is called a
*farer*, for that the drag between unlike ladings flits it. When
bernstonebits flit by themselves, it may be as a bolt of
lightning, a spark off some faststanding chunk, or the everyday

flow of bernstoneness through wires.



Coming back to the uncleft itself, the heavier it is, the more
neitherbits as well as firstbits in its kernel. Indeed, soon the
tale of neitherbits is the greater. Unclefts with the same tale
of firstbits but unlike tales of neitherbits are called
*samesteads*. Thus, everyday sourstuff has eight neitherbits with
its eight firstbits, but there are also kinds with five, six,
seven, nine, ten, and eleven neitherbits. A samestead is known by
the tale of both kernel motes, so that we have sourstuff-13,
sourstuff-14, and so on, with sourstuff-16 being by far the most
found. Having the same number of bernstonebits, the samesteads of
a firststuff behave almost alike minglingly. They do show some
unlikenesses, outstandingly among the heavier ones, and these can
be worked to sunder samesteads from each other.



Most samesteads of every firststuff are unabiding. Their kernels
break up, each at its own speed. This speed is written as the
*half-life*, which is how long it takes half of any deal of the
samestead thus to shift itself. The doing is known as
*lightrotting*. It may happen fast or slowly, and in any of
sundry ways, offhanging on the makeup of the kernel. A kernel may
spit out two firstbits with two neitherbits, that is, a sunstuff
kernel, thus leaping two steads back in the roundaround board and
four weights back in heaviness. It may give off a bernstonebit
from a neitherbit, which thereby becomes a firstbit and thrusts
the uncleft one stead up in the board while keeping the same
weight. It may give off a *forwardbit*, which is a mote with the
same weight as a bernstonebit but a forward lading, and thereby
spring one stead down in the board while keeping the same weight.
Often, too, a mote is given off with neither lading nor
heaviness, called the *weeneitherbit*. In much lightrotting, a
mote of light with most short wavelength comes out as well.



For although light oftenest behaves as a wave, it can be looked
on as a mote, the *lightbit*. We have already said by the way
that a mote of stuff can behave not only as a chunk, but as a
wave. Down among the unclefts, things do not happen in steady
flowings, but in leaps between bestandings that are forbidden.
The knowledge-hunt of this is called *lump beholding*.



Nor are stuff and work unakin. Rather, they are groundwise the
same, and one can be shifted into the other. The kinship between
them is that work is like unto weight manifolded by the fourside
of the haste of light.



By shooting motes into kernels, worldken folk have shifted
samesteads of one firststuff into samesteads of another. Thus did
they make ymirstuff into aegirstuff and helstuff, and they have
afterward gone beyond these. The heavier firststuffs are all
highly lightrottish and therefore are not found in the
greenworld.



Some of the higher samesteads are *splitly*. That is, when a
neitherbit strikes the kernel of one, as for a showdeal
ymirstuff-235, it bursts into lesser kernels and free
neitherbits; the latter can then split more ymirstuff-235. When
this happens, weight shifts into work. It is not much of the
whole, but nevertheless it is awesome.



With enough strength, lightweight unclefts can be made to
togethermelt. In the sun, through a row of strikings and
lightrottings, four unclefts of waterstuff in this wise become
one of sunstuff. Again some weight is lost as work, and again
this is greatly big when set beside the work gotten from a
minglingish doing such as fire.


Today we wield both kind of uncleftish doings in weapons, and
kernelish splitting gives us heat and bernstoneness. We hope to
do likewise with togethermelting, which would yield an unhemmed
wellspring of work for mankindish goodgain.


Soothly we live in mighty years!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaksper
To be, or not to be: that is the ask-thing:is't higher-thinking in the brain to bearthe slings and arrows of outrageous doomingor to take weapons 'gainst a sea of bothersand by againstwork end them?...
http://www.geocities.com/bajparry/Anglish.html
http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Headside

French loans words, I think, are going to be unavoidable even without a Norman invasion though, and an eventual turn to Greek and Roman thought will probably affect the sciences.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old April 26th, 2008, 08:14 PM
Thande Thande is offline
Ambassador in Chains
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: An AndyC Timeline (formerly OTL)
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendryk View Post
There was a Victorian philologist with an axe to grind
You say that like there's any other sort

Yes, his work (and Dr Johnson's considered anti-French spelling reforms, some of which were adopted in the US) would be of interest here.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old April 26th, 2008, 08:15 PM
Thande Thande is offline
Ambassador in Chains
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: An AndyC Timeline (formerly OTL)
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by HueyLong View Post
French loans words, I think, are going to be unavoidable even without a Norman invasion though, and an eventual turn to Greek and Roman thought will probably affect the sciences.
There will be some, but only to the same extent that U.S. English is influenced by Mexican Spanish: the exchange of neighbours, not a full new language being forced down from above and mingling with the original one below.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old April 26th, 2008, 10:40 PM
Jasen777 Jasen777 is offline
Martyr Without a Cause
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thande View Post
U.S. English is influenced by Mexican Spanish: the exchange of neighbours,
I recently went to a restaurant, looked at the menu and thought the only thing on it that was written in English was "Enchiladas." (Of course the whole thing was in Spanish).
__________________
I've had a lot of worries in my life, most of which never happened.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old April 27th, 2008, 09:58 AM
Joseph Solis in Australia Joseph Solis in Australia is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Kingdom of Australia
Posts: 1000 or more
Send a message via Yahoo to Joseph Solis in Australia
Maybe English would not be called English but Anglo Saxon and there is no Norman French influence, English language would became mutually intelligible to Icelandic or Norwegians.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret Thatcher View Post
There can be no liberty without economic liberty
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old April 27th, 2008, 10:49 AM
admkenshin admkenshin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1000 or more
Modern icelandic and norwegian are QUITE unintelligible to each other. Now, this 'anglish' will probably go along the route of norwegian style germanic, (which is called western ancient/rune nordic), and thus drop the definite article (it's called this right?) and instead 'conjugate' the noun, like in scandinavian languages. Then again, the british isles general isolation after people settle down might prevent this.

Actually I have no idea ^_^;;;
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old April 27th, 2008, 01:45 PM
Thande Thande is offline
Ambassador in Chains
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: An AndyC Timeline (formerly OTL)
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Solis in Australia View Post
Maybe English would not be called English but Anglo Saxon and there is no Norman French influence, English language would became mutually intelligible to Icelandic or Norwegians.
"Anglo-Saxon" is a modern term. At the time it was just called Englisc, pronounced English, and it would continue to be called that up to the present day if it had never been influenced by French.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old April 27th, 2008, 03:08 PM
Atom Atom is offline
Future Human
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Amber
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
With any luck people would still use s, s and a few s for good measure. I'd be quite disappointed if they didn't.
The loss of those letters was more to do with the first English printers being Dutch, and not due to French English. Y was sometimes used for early on though.
__________________
My brain is open. - Paul Erdős
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old April 27th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Analytical Engine Analytical Engine is offline
Wants devolution for all
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Wales, the *UNITED* Kingdom, Europe, worldwide British Empire
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atom View Post
The loss of those letters was more to do with the first English printers being Dutch, and not due to French English. Y was sometimes used for early on though.
Hence things like "Ye olde..."
__________________
Reds vs. Blues - 27/11/14
Star Trek (2009) reimagined - completed
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.