AH Challenge: Industrial Revolution in Italy

Your challenge, if you choose to accept it, is to have the industrial revolution occur in Magna Italia, with a POD no later than 1000. Bonus poinsts if it starts in Sicily or Southern Italy. Double extra super bonus points if it involves the Hauteville family somehow. Execution by hanging from the neck until dead for anyone who uses da Vinci as a cheap way out.

Good night, and good luck.
 
Well, I think that Italy was off to a great start in this period. The Nation that historically Industrialized OTL was the UK, because of several social trends working on them at once. Italy's first problem is that its run by Germany for much of this period, so it won't be stable enough to support Industrialization.

The Second is that the Catholic Church, with ironclad rules against Usury, are going to stifle capitalism or any effort that would lead to excessive profit, which is behind Factories in the First Place.

Finally, I'm not sure that Italy has the resources to Industrialize. Unlike Germany and the United Kingdom, Italy has few natural resources, like coal, to begin the process.

Now these problems individually are each surmountable--Italy can be unifed or incorporated into another country with coal sufficient launch the change and Rome is an excellent choice for a National Capital, in terms of development. The Power of the Catholic Church can be curbed in terms of Usury with the correct social developments. But the problem remains fuels. The Italian people are smart enough and cultured enough to make the switch, but they lack the materials to do it, and there is also the major concern that the United Kingdom would simply be able to do it better, faster, and stronger then Italy can.

If I had to Start down this path, I'd suggest that the Holy Roman Empire pushes further south and KOs the Papacy, replacing it with a figurehead with little real power. The Rest of Italy is then incorporated into the HRE, while the power of the Pope steadily Decreases. The HRE, instead of being split of Martin Luther, formalizes into a legitimate Empire all the while including Italy. Internal tensions are resolved with a positive compromise that forces the Catholic Church out of state power and into a parallel power.

By the 16th Century, however, HRE was threatened by one of their neighbors at its greatest height--Poland-Lithuania. HRE, under the threat of war from a rival power, develop Industrialization simultaneously in Italy, Germany and Bohemia (Northern Italy is a pretty good place Logistically for this to happen).

England, however, is wracked by repeated Civil Wars for the next 200 years as Parliament, varying contenders to the throne, Scots, Nobleman, and Libertarians all vie for control of the country, earning it the name of the "Bloody Island" and suffering far too much instability to ever develop. Instead, many of the would-be inventors of Industrial technology move to HRE and begin to build factories in Germany-Bohemia-Italy.

There you go, Italy first to industrialize--and this assumes that Italy/Germany/Bohemia somehow qualifies.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Italy's first problem is that its run by Germany for much of this period, so it won't be stable enough to support Industrialization.

Run by Germany? It was a collection of feuding city-states run by no one.

The Second is that the Catholic Church, with ironclad rules against Usury, are going to stifle capitalism or any effort that would lead to excessive profit, which is behind Factories in the First Place.
Hrmm. As Italy was where Europe's' first great banking houses arose, I wo uld not be concerned about the Church's purported prohibition of usury.
 
There you go, Italy first to industrialize--and this assumes that Italy/Germany/Bohemia somehow qualifies.
Nope. Try again.

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You don't need coal for this to happen. I'm generalizing here, but coal was used for heavy manufacturing where lots of metal was used, thus immense quantities of heat needing to be generated. This leaves out textile manufacturing, which was one of the first applications to be industrialized. The large textile producing regions were, IIRC, Flanders, England and...Central Italy (Jeans were in fact named for Genoa).
 
Do you mean a POD no earlier than 1000? Because the way you said, both the Hautevilles and Da Vinci would be out of the question.
 

Thande

Donor
Remember, Britain industrialised because her wealth stemmed from 1) having lots of sheep and 2) being an island, thus having lots of ports. Wool, textiles, overseas trade. Mills for increasing the production of textiles. The industrialisation of everything else ultimately comes from that.

What trade goods does Italy or an Italian state have that would require industrialisation to optimise production of? Their sea trade partners, remember, would presumably be other Mediterranean states rather than worldwide.
 
If we want a POD no LATER than 1000 AD... then let's try this:

(warning: Byzanti-wank follows)

POD: Trajan's Gate (978 AD, if I recall correctly) does not happen. As a result, Basil II manages to spend the first ten years of his reign subduing Bulgaria and ensuring relative peace within his domains, instead of fighting a multi-front civil war as in OTL.

By about 1000 AD, he is ready to take on his next big project - Italian conquest. The next 20 years are spent retaking Sicily and most of Southern Italy, culminating with the capture of Rome and even a push into Tuscany by 1020s.

Yet another major difference from OTL - here, Basil's brother Constantine actually has a son or two instead of three daughters of OTL. Let's make it two sons... and let's have both Basil and Constantine live about as long as they have in OTL, giving Basil a few more years (given that he died in 1025 aged 67, giving him another 5 years is not too unreasonable), but letting Constantine die on schedule, give or take a year (1028 OTL).

The end result is, Basil can appoint Constantine as the "Western Emperor", or at least something very much akin to one - given the disintegration of the Saxon dynasty in "HRE", and immediate presence of Byzantine army in Italy, he might be able to even have Constantine appointed the titular Western Emperor, with most of Italy as his territory. Once both Basil and Constantine are dead, Constantine's hypothetical sons would inherit the East and the West.

The end result of it would be the creation of a self-sustaining state in Italy, in alliance with the preeminent power of the time. This state, along with the relative calm existing in the East, can prompt further programs of reconquest, eventually unifying most of Italy under the "Roman" banner. There is another strong implication here - with a major imperial power in Italy, the Catholic Church is nowhere near as powerful.

While I would expect that by 1100 this state would be more Italian than Greek, this creates an environment where the Church influence is weakened, and strong mercantile strains already existed. It is not too far of a stretch to postulate a set of circumstances that might lead to an industrial revolution down the line, considering the potential competition for the trade routes from the Eastern Empire and the Arab states, and Imperial ambitions of Franks, Germans, and others creating an environment where a certain degree of economic superiority can go a long way.

A more detailed timeline might be needed, but at least some of the conditions - political stability, and sufficiently mercantile mindset - can be met now with the above scenario.
 
Run by Germany? It was a collection of feuding city-states run by no one.


Hrmm. As Italy was where Europe's' first great banking houses arose, I wo uld not be concerned about the Church's purported prohibition of usury.

Are you kidding? The Medecis controlled the Papacy in order to continue thier Banking dominance. Usury only became for banks that weren't Medici at the time.

The only thing that could make an industrial revolution develop is to usurp the Medicis as well as the papacy. An early, more violent reformation, perhaps?
 
If we want a POD no LATER than 1000 AD... then let's try this:

(warning: Byzanti-wank follows)

Good timeline, but I think at this point the Investiture Controversy had not happened, the HR Emperors controlled the pope, and the Holy Roman Empire was still a strong state. So I doubt they would take the loss of Italy sitting down, and the Byzantines would have to maintain a very large military presence in Italy to retain anything north of the Catepanate and Rome.
 
Good timeline, but I think at this point the Investiture Controversy had not happened, the HR Emperors controlled the pope, and the Holy Roman Empire was still a strong state. So I doubt they would take the loss of Italy sitting down, and the Byzantines would have to maintain a very large military presence in Italy to retain anything north of the Catepanate and Rome.

Actually, in OTL Italy was supposed to be Basil II's next adventure... Rome is still recovering from the "pornocracy", and the strong Saxon dynasty of HRE has just come to an inglorious end with Otto III's premature death, before he could marry Zoe (Constantine VIII's daughter he was supposed to marry, and eventually Empress after Constantine's OTL death). Presuming that the Saxon dynasty does not do any better, HRE has a power vacuum around this time, which the Byzantines can exploit.

In other words, HRE was at a very opportune moment of weakness, and Byzantium was at the zenith of its power. It can still happen here.
 
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