Stamford Bridge Lost

[037771]

WI Harold Hardraada had utterly destroyed Harold IIs army at Stamford Bridge. And i mean utterly; he turns up with all his men straight away at the battle and ends up killing Harold. What then?

[rcduggan]

Harald declares himself King of England and then has a showdown when William I shows up?

[037771]

Could he do it in 1066? Or would Harold just shoot down south, burning and raping as he went, until encountering William just shy of London? Vikings vs. Normans! What a battle.

[htgriffin]

Originally Posted by 037771

WI Harold Hardraada had utterly destroyed Harold IIs army at Stamford Bridge. And i mean utterly; he turns up with all his men straight away at the battle and ends up killing Harold. What then?

I am thinking a de facto partition. Northumbria is Hardraada's for certain, the question is how far south the surviving AngloSaxons would rally to him against the Norman Bastard (odds are the Southern Coast is too readily reenforced for such an ad hoc alliance to expel the Normans).

HTG

[037771]

I entirely disagree; for William, England was his inherited right- he wasnt going to concede anything. Besides, if William is defeated by Hardraada north of London, he would have to face massive pressure from his nobles to retreat, pressure he couldnt resist. Moreover, in the event he might have been deposed. Harold on the other hand wasnt merely a Duke but a King; he was the legitimate son of his father Olaf, and although he did very quickly didnt have to prove himself early on with warfare or defeat rival claimants. Harold also doesnt sound the kind of guy to simply come to terms in a stalemate. If a stalemate comes, then William would probably lose anyway.

[Geordie]

Originally Posted by 037771

for William, England was his inherited right- he wasnt going to concede anything.

In 1066, Northumbria's status as definatively 'England' is, in my mind, less than concrete.

However, I do agree with you about the fact that William will be under pressure to leave quickly in the wake of a defeat.

Then again, it depends upon the location of the defeat, the level of control the Normans have on the South, and what the Saxons are up to.

If both Gyrth and Leofwine (Harold's brothers killed at Hastings) die at Stamford Bridge, the Saxons may fall in line with Tostig behind Hardrada.

They may instead rally to Morcar, Edwin and Edgar Aetheling. What they would do is unknown. Tostig had been removed from Northumbria by Harold due to his unpopularity. That hatred may still remain.

If one or both of Gyrth and Leofwine survive, what they do will be interesting. Will they join Tostig, to take positions of power in Harald's new regome? Will they bid for the throne themselves as Harold's heir, or support another.

I think that what happens next is very dependent upon the fallen at the battle of Stamford Bridge and the subsequent actions of leading Saxon nobles.

There could be a three way war, the Saxons could side with either Norman or Viking, or divide between them.

[037771]

The Saxons in the north i think would have sides with the likes of Earl Morcar; Tostig was a menace to the people of the north, pillaging, raping and murdering under Edward the Confessor as he saw fit until his brother Harold sorted him out. That of course would be the least of Hardraadas problems, as William was in the south. Assuming Harold defeats William, then of course he would have a dilemma; peace in Northumbria if he cuts himself off of Tostig, or be true to his vassal and put down what might be a very nasty rebellion.

[Jammy]

This reminds me of a brilliant TL written by AJNolte - still writting it as well i believe.

It's a really good TL - based around William winning but not as well as in OTL

[037771]

Is that William the Forsaken?

[Jammy]

Originally Posted by 037771

Is that William the Forsaken?

Not sure i'll find it and put a link up


"The Greater Norman Empire and its successor states. " - TL Title

[037771]

Originally Posted by Jammy

"The Greater Norman Empire and its successor states. " - TL Title

Probs not William the Forsaken then....

[stodge]

With the Saxon fyrd decimated, there would be little or no resistance to William's army in the south. I suspect that once he heard of Harold's death, he would move toward London and proclaim himself King of England.

Harald would presumably ensure Tostig was proclaimed King in York and there would, at some point, come either confrontation or negotiation between the Norwegians and Normans. I think confrontation is unlikely - Hardrada's army is large and would attract some Saxon support as would William's.

I suspect the more likely option is negotiation leading to an agreed partition of England perhaps not on the basis of Danelaw but not too far removed. Perhaps everything north and east of the Trent goes to Tostig/Hardrada and everything to the south to William.

Medium-term - I suspect Tostig is too stupid to keep control of his kingdom without Norwegian help. On the model of Cnut, it seems probable the Norwegians will see the benefit of becoming English and may in time even diverge from Norway. The question will then be relations with Scotland to the north and Wessex to the south.

For William, I suspect the immediate future is a group of discontented knights and a land to pillage and control.

Will there even be an England after all this ? Could what we know as southern England (perhaps including Wales eventually) become part of the emerging French nation leaving the north to become part of a greater Scotland in time ?

[037771]

It wasnt Tostigs claim, it was Harolds. He would have been in control in the north. And i dont think that there would be partition; this isnt Alfred the Great- the lasting authority has been carved to pieces at Stamford Bridge, and neither would be willing to negotiate. Harold has just won a big battle, while William needs to go all out in order to confirm his powerbase; the nobility of Normandy would be rebellious if he gets entangled in a dangerous place in England.