WI the Vikings are blocked from Europe?

[NapoleonXIV]

As I understand it the Viking age was brought about somewhat by something called the Medieval Warm Period or somesuch, which warmed up all Europe and particularly caused a population boom in Scandinavia.

Now WI one of Charlemagne's sons was as good as the old man, killed off or dominated his brothers, and kept the Empire strong, even conquering England in the bargain? He then establishes a mechanism for orderly succession of strong leaders.

So the Vikings find trained and veteran armies ready for their raids instead of easy pickings. Where do all these extra Norwergians and Danes go now? Might they establish colonies, maybe even a colonial empire, in North Am?

[Analytical Engine]

The Song of Roland has something like this...

Sort of...

Anyway, Charlemagne is even greater, conquering Denmark (amonst other places...) therefore, there is no Danelaw in the British Isles...
His heirs manage to stop Norwegian settlement in Frankia, but they go to the Iberian Peninsula Instead...

There is a (post-)Viking kingdom of Ireland, and a former one in OTL Scotland (though it is now ruled by Scots)...

[wiking]

Unlikely. The raids were meant to be lightning fast, in and out. Some of the longer expeditions would be countered by the imperial armies, but such armies are expensive. Likely, the raids would be frequent, but coastal in nature, but the British Isles would be under larger pressure. North America was too far by the technology of the day, but we could see a larger Viking presence and kingdoms in Britain and Ireland.

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by wiking

Unlikely. The raids were meant to be lightning fast, in and out. Some of the longer expeditions would be countered by the imperial armies, but such armies are expensive. Likely, the raids would be frequent, but coastal in nature, but the British Isles would be under larger pressure. North America was too far by the technology of the day, but we could see a larger Viking presence and kingdoms in Britain and Ireland.

Agreed...

You could manage to keep major Viking settlement from continental Europe...

[Ofaloaf]

For Viking raids to be warded off, Charlemagne's empire would have to either:

1. Allow castles and fortifications to be built by nobles once more, weakening the power of the central government and likely making the empire eventually dissolve into a very loose association like the early-modern era HRE.

2. Develop an incredible system of news relays and a standing, mobile army drilled constantly to make the fastest response units possible for the era.

3. Buy off the Vikings.


There'd still be likely plenty of raiding of Frankish lands even if Charlemagne's empire remained unified longer- there were simply too many places that the Vikings could pick off, while the army could move only so fast.

[Grimm Reaper]

The Vikings may have just enough impetus to push east of Finland or to take Ireland or even Scotland or England, perhaps even attaining viable colonies in North America.

Which reminds of an old ATL on this site called 'Empty America'. Anyone know what happened to it?

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

The Vikings may have just enough impetus to push east of Finland or to take Ireland or even Scotland or England, perhaps even attaining viable colonies in North America.

Viking Russia?

[arctic warrior]

It looks like the Viking raids were at their premium when the King of Denmark was strong, danish/viking nobility having to find the good life abroad!
When the King was week nobility would stay home fighting it out.

Having a strong Frankish Empire incl. England might serve to turn Danish Viking attention south and east in the Baltic when the King was strong. In times of royal weakness attention would like OTL focus on the succession to the throne.
Norwegians would probably still go for the Isles/Scotland and Ireland. And the North Atlantic. But the latter probably not more then OTL. (even if I attempted a TL saying otherwise...)

So Danes and Swedes going south and east to harass Vends, Balts, Russians and Finns...

[historiD15C]

They would be held from settlement if the Frankish kingdom is strong.
That means they would be turned towards russia and the baltic, and/or
the british isles. They would still venture down to iberia, and if luck
was on their side they maybe able to hold N.A. (darn lactose intolerance)!!

[condor]

Theres a growing amount of evidence that points to the Frankish invasion of Frisia being a key factor in unleashing the Vikings upon Europe. They were apparently a strong naval power themselves and Charlemagnes invasion left them so weak that the Danes were simply able to bypass them and begin plundering the rest of Western Europe.

So perhaps if the attention of the Franks remains more fixated upon the Saxons and the eastern germanic tribes throught the 8th Century, and have them form an alliance with the Frisians you could greatly decrease the amount of plundering the Danes are able to do.

[arctic warrior]

Originally Posted by condor

Theres a growing amount of evidence that points to the Frankish invasion of Frisia being a key factor in unleashing the Vikings upon Europe. They were apparently a strong naval power themselves and Charlemagnes invasion left them so weak that the Danes were simply able to bypass them and begin plundering the rest of Western Europe.

So perhaps if the attention of the Franks remains more fixated upon the Saxons and the eastern germanic tribes throught the 8th Century, and have them form an alliance with the Frisians you could greatly decrease the amount of plundering the Danes are able to do.

The latest Danish perception is that it was the Frankish invasion/subdoing of the Saxons that fired off the Danish Viking raids.

Danish King Godfrey had invaded and taxed the Frisians in 810 before his being killed by one of his hird, perhaps a plot by Charlemagne.

[Alratan]

However it's accomplished - perhaps a strong and united British or Anglo-Saxon kingdom in the British isles could do it, if the vikings are kept out of western Europe we would probably see greater penetration into modern day Russia.

[CanadianGoose]

Yeah, Eastern Europe seem to be natural area of Viking expansion once fat shores of Frankia and Anglia become offlimit. Poland, Lithuania and Latvia largely avoided Viking attacks IOTL for being low-yild, high-trouble (in case of Poland) targets. And then, once you sail across great Ladoga lake and Ilmen, there's Russia... That's where Danes and Swedes will direct most of their effort. Norwegians are relatively out of luck, but they have White Sea shore and Northern Dvina basin to settle...

[wiking]

Well there was a large swedish presence in this area OTL, so maybe we can see viable kingdoms, proto-colonies if you will set up in the east. These kinds would not be (hopefully) subsumed by the Slavic peoples to the east and later form part of a greater scandinavia. This will obviously have knock on effects when the Russians come knocking later and may serve to cement the Baltics as a Scandinavian lake. The danes would also have a presence, but if the Swedes can maintain an empire in the East, then their population could take off and represent a serious power later on.

This might be worth a TL.

[Hobbesian]

ah but remember war is ironically constructive in a dialectic way as it forces people to migrate and merge. new technology(longship,weapon tech) and culture is developed. so no vikings may leave europe in a worse condition than OTL.

to give an example of how vikings have 'helped' other civs by migrating: Varangian Guard!!

[wiking]

bump bump bump

[CanadianGoose]

Originally Posted by wiking

Well there was a large swedish presence in this area OTL, so maybe we can see viable kingdoms, proto-colonies if you will set up in the east. These kinds would not be (hopefully) subsumed by the Slavic peoples to the east and later form part of a greater scandinavia. This will obviously have knock on effects when the Russians come knocking later and may serve to cement the Baltics as a Scandinavian lake. The danes would also have a presence, but if the Swedes can maintain an empire in the East, then their population could take off and represent a serious power later on.

This might be worth a TL.

Slavs were pretty numerous, civilized (well, by the Northern European standards, which does not say much) and well organized in Ladoga-Pskov-Novgorod area by 8th century, so any "replacement" of them by Norse settlers is ASB. Extremely optimistic Normanist scenario would be Russian Danelaw (mixed population with dominating Norse component slowly dissolving in Slavic majority) or Russian Normandy (Norse barons ruling Slavic commoners and being assimilated by them). However, areas to the north and east of it (basically everything north and east of Novgorod-Tver or even Novgorod-Moscow line all the way to Urals) is up for grabs. This area is pretty lousy climate-wise, but Norse can live there, not very different from worse areas of Finland and Sweden. Turning Baltic into Scandinavian lake is extremely possible, Norse could even try to conquer Western Slavic areas between OTL Lubeck and OTL Szczecin, instead of Germans, and assimilate locals.

[Analytical Engine]

Originally Posted by CanadianGoose

Slavs were pretty numerous, civilized (well, by the Northern European standards, which does not say much) and well organized in Ladoga-Pskov-Novgorod area by 8th century, so any "replacement" of them by Norse settlers is ASB. Extremely optimistic Normanist scenario would be Russian Danelaw (mixed population with dominating Norse component slowly dissolving in Slavic majority) or Russian Normandy (Norse barons ruling Slavic commoners and being assimilated by them). However, areas to the north and east of it (basically everything north and east of Novgorod-Tver or even Novgorod-Moscow line all the way to Urals) is up for grabs. This area is pretty lousy climate-wise, but Norse can live there, not very different from worse areas of Finland and Sweden. Turning Baltic into Scandinavian lake is extremely possible, Norse could even try to conquer Western Slavic areas between OTL Lubeck and OTL Szczecin, instead of Germans, and assimilate locals.

Norse Prussia/Baltic Region?

Danelaw Novgorod?

[CanadianGoose]

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

Norse Prussia/Baltic Region?

Danelaw Novgorod?

Yeah, more or less. Also, I feel you are unaware of whole Polabian Slavs thingy. I see no reason why Norse could not conquer and partly assimilate, partly exterminate them, instead of Germans. Also Nrthern Belarus (Polotsk and all that jazz) can be Danelawed, so to speak. Longboats can sail far up Dvina and tributaries, you know.

[wiking]

What happens to this empire when the mongols come?