AH Challenge: Italy dominant axis power in WW2.

Krall · Apr 2, 2008

This is mainly research for a TL I'm thinking of doing.

When you think of WW2, people always know that Germany was the dominant power, with the fact that Italy was also part of the axis being sort of a sidenote, like "Oh and Italy was there too but they didn't do much."

Is there any way with a POD after 1900, to make Italy the dominant axis power, with Germany being their puppet instead of the other way round?

Valdemar II · Apr 2, 2008

Krall said:
This is mainly research for a TL I'm thinking of doing.

When you think of WW2, people always know that Germany was the dominant power, with the fact that Italy was also part of the axis being sort of a sidenote, like "Oh and Italy was there too but they didn't do much."

Is there any way with a POD after 1900, to make Italy the dominant axis power, with Germany being their puppet instead of the other way round?

No, Germany where so much bigger that I can't see them as the sidekick, it would be like Batman was Robins sidekick.

Krall · Apr 2, 2008

Valdemar II said:
No, Germany where so much bigger that I can't see them as the sidekick, it would be like Batman was Robins sidekick.

Size has nothing to do with it, compare the size of the British Empire to Britain and you'll see what I mean.

Ridwan Asher · Apr 2, 2008

Krall said:
Size has nothing to do with it, compare the size of the British Empire to Britain and you'll see what I mean.

Umm... uh... forgot about the man power and industry Germany had compared to Italy ?

Besides, seeing the negligible colonial empire they had, I don't think an Italy as strong as you're aiming would be possible for post-1900 PoDs, I'm afraid....

Valdemar II · Apr 2, 2008

R. I. Alsidecias said:
Umm... uh... forgot about the man power and industry Germany had compared to Italy ?

Besides, seeing the negligible colonial empire they had, I don't think an Italy as strong as you're aiming would be possible for post-1900 PoDs, I'm afraid....

Precisely, Italy didn't have chance to gety to German level of industry, infrastructure and know-how by the middle of the 20th century.

Krall · Apr 2, 2008

Italy doesn't have to be more powerful than Germany, it just has to control Germany and be the dominant member of the Axis.

Emperor Qianlong · Apr 2, 2008

R. I. Alsidecias said:
Umm... uh... forgot about the man power and industry Germany had compared to Italy ?

Besides, seeing the negligible colonial empire they had, I don't think an Italy as strong as you're aiming would be possible for post-1900 PoDs, I'm afraid....

Well, population-wise, Italy did have about 40-45 million people around WWII, meaning it was more populous than France (circa 30-35 million people) and less populous than Germany (circa 60 million people). Of course people alone isn't everything - given that Japan has some 80 million people at the time. And I agree that this would require some pre-1900 POD. Specifically, what would work is give Italy somehow more industrial capacity and Germany less. Then, it might work.

Urban fox · Apr 2, 2008

Well ether Germany is really weak or Italy is outlandishly strong.

If it's the former the war is over in a month.

Krall · Apr 2, 2008

Emperor Qianlong said:
Well, population-wise, Italy did have about 40-45 million people around WWII, meaning it was more populous than France (circa 30-35 million people) and less populous than Germany (circa 60 million people). Of course people alone isn't everything - given that Japan has some 80 million people at the time. And I agree that this would require some pre-1900 POD. Specifically, what would work is give Italy somehow more industrial capacity and Germany less. Then, it might work.

Italy doesn't need to be more industrial to be able to control Germany!

Wozza · Apr 2, 2008

Krall said:
Italy doesn't need to be more industrial to be able to control Germany!

How would a poorer less populared country control a richer more populous one?

Krall · Apr 2, 2008

Wozza said:
How would a poorer less populared country control a richer more populous one?

Politically. The German leader could be a puppet of the Italian regime.

Wozza · Apr 2, 2008

Krall said:
Politically. The German leader could be a puppet of the Italian regime.

And can you name a single historical example of this happening? And can you think there might be a reason for that?

Puppets are puppets because they benefit from outside resources. If the puppet genuinely control the country he can swiftly gather more resources than his master and defy them as he pleases.

Krall · Apr 2, 2008

Okay, look, stop saying it's impossible, I don't care if you think it's impossible, that's not the point of AH challenges.

The point of this thread is to speculate how Italy may become the dominant member of the axis, not to say it would never happen.

LordIreland · Apr 2, 2008

I think your assumption here is flawed. Italy was not a german puppet. But very much an independant power. For example, the Italians refused to enact the German racial laws leading to far fewer deaths amongst italian jews and other undesirables, as well as practicing an independant foreign policy. The achilles heal for Italy was the appalling state of her armed forces, which made her a paper tiger, lead by a man of questionable ability and vision.

However, IIRC Hitler did model himself (at least initially) on Mussolini. The trick here would be to have Muss beguile Hitler and keep him that way (a superhuman task if ever there was one

). But the biggest problem is that Italy and Germany have very different geopolitical aims.

IMHO, a more reasonable Pod might be to have Italy develop a stronger industrial base and armed froces. I think a number of AHs have been done on that line already.

Otherwise, lets call in our old friends the ASBs

Emperor Qianlong · Apr 2, 2008

Krall said:
Okay, look, stop saying it's impossible, I don't care if you think it's impossible, that's not the point of AH challenges.

The point of this thread is to speculate how Italy may become the dominant member of the axis, not to say it would never happen.

Well, like I said, give Italy more industrial capability. Or, perhaps have a harsher Versailles treaty that demolishes a good deal of Germany's industry, making it harder for them. Just an idea. Then it might work out.

Krall · Apr 2, 2008

Emperor Qianlong said:
Well, like I said, give Italy more industrial capability.

How would you get that, though?

Emperor Qianlong said:
Or, perhaps have a harsher Versailles treaty that demolishes a good deal of Germany's industry, making it harder for them.

Do you mean the allies remove territory from Germany, or they literally blow up Germany's factories?

Emperor Qianlong · Apr 2, 2008

Krall said:
How would you get that, though?

Do you mean the allies remove territory from Germany, or they literally blow up Germany's factories?

It may be somewhat ASBish, but I'm thinking along the lines of a too early Morgenthau Plan, with the allies dismantling and removing factories. It's somewhat unlikely and overblown, but given how angry the French were during the Versailles negotiations, it might be possible.

Zyzzyva · Apr 2, 2008

Well, my though could be that the allies break up Germany at the end of WWI; then Italy forms some kind of alliance with the bits. WWII start (probably several years later) when Italy starts picking on Yugoslavia. End result: UK + France + Yugoslavia vs Italy + Little German principalities.

Krall · Apr 2, 2008

Emperor Qianlong said:
It may be somewhat ASBish, but I'm thinking along the lines of a too early Morgenthau Plan, with the allies dismantling and removing factories. It's somewhat unlikely and overblown, but given how angry the French were during the Versailles negotiations, it might be possible.

It could be indeed...

Hmm, if Italy joined the Allies in WW1, might they get some reparations and perhaps some territory off of Germany? That might help make Italy more powerful and weaken Germany at the same time.

Alexius · Apr 2, 2008

Perhaps also a Versailles that gives Italy a load of A-H industry/territory. Maybe no self-determination, so Italy gets much of what would be Yugoslavia- plus the Tyrol of course.