Horses or Camels survive in America

Ok, very basic idea, very possibly been done before, but...

The POD is the extremely distant past. A species of horse or camel does not go extinct, but survives into prehistory, to be domesticated by the American Indians. How, then do things change? Will there be more advancement in Indian technology generally? More widespread development of agriculture with a draft animal of some kind availiable?

:confused: What do you smart people think?
 
first, it depends on whether these species are domesticable or not (not a given, since only 2 of the 4 equine species were)... the camels are a good bet, since in OTL, 5 out of 6 species were domesticated. The animals would be a boon to the Native Americans... but they would still lag far behind the Old World. They still have no equivalents to cattle, sheep, pigs, and wheat. I'd think the NAs (on the plains, at least) would be more mobile, and ideas would spread faster, but there's still a pretty good chance that they'll still be living in a neolithic culture when Columbus arrives...
 
first, it depends on whether these species are domesticable or not (not a given, since only 2 of the 4 equine species were)... the camels are a good bet, since in OTL, 5 out of 6 species were domesticated. The animals would be a boon to the Native Americans... but they would still lag far behind the Old World. They still have no equivalents to cattle, sheep, pigs, and wheat. I'd think the NAs (on the plains, at least) would be more mobile, and ideas would spread faster, but there's still a pretty good chance that they'll still be living in a neolithic culture when Columbus arrives...

With horses on the North American Great Plains, then you'll end up with an American equivalent of the Asian steppes. I think that even with this rather large POD the Mesoamerican Civilizations will still appear, except that now they will be subject to raids from the northern horse-riders of the Great Plains. The raiders would interact with the wealthy southern civilizations, bring bits of it north, and probably end up getting civilized themselves.

Also, if you have this cycle of raider warfare, then the warfare of the Mesoamerican Civilization(s) will probably end up more practical, and come to use the horses that the raiders come south on. The horses will probably give the natives at least some of their own diseases too, since they would be living with the horses long-term.

With the horses having survived, I assume the buffalo do also? Perhaps we see some kind of large scale herding going on, perhaps with some kind of rough domestication. So a Plains economy based on raiding the sedentary peoples at the edge of the Plains, and herding the buffalo on the inside of it.
 
I don't think Mesoamerica will be affected that greatly, as theres too much mountainous terrain between them and the Great plains. This would probably benefit them as there would be draft animals to plow fields, and make travel easier. Also what do you mean by more practical, Matthais Corvinus? I'd like some clarification.
 
With the horses having survived, I assume the buffalo do also? Perhaps we see some kind of large scale herding going on, perhaps with some kind of rough domestication. So a Plains economy based on raiding the sedentary peoples at the edge of the Plains, and herding the buffalo on the inside of it.

probably not real domestication... more like a controlled harvest. Without modern fencing, the NAs aren't going to be able to contain bison... plus, they have a powerful instinctive urge to migrate long distances (north to south)... so the NAs would be taking a chunk out of every herd that goes by...
 
I don't think Mesoamerica will be affected that greatly, as theres too much mountainous terrain between them and the Great plains.


Really? I know that the Triple Alliance (Aztec) were IN the mountains (Mexico City is at quite a high attitude) but I don't think that there is a large mountain range between the Great Plains and Central Mexico.

This would probably benefit them as there would be draft animals to plow fields, and make travel easier. Also what do you mean by more practical, Matthais Corvinus? I'd like some clarification.

By more practical I mean that war is actually conducted in order to kill the opponent.

My thinking was that the Great Plains would serve like some kind of parallel Eurasian steppes, with raiding cultures attacking settled peoples at the periphery rather frequently (and settled peoples perhaps being pushed into the Great Plains, ala OTL). These raiding cultures would end up really pushing the cultural boundaries of at least North America, because you would have relatively quick communication and travel from Central Mexico all the way to east of the Mississippi.

So because of this greater communication and exchange between cultures, each culture is not navel gazing in its own corner of the Americas, cut off and unconnected to the other cultures (I know that there was communication and a certain amount of trade iOTL, but I think that the existence of the domesticated horse will greatly change the whole picture). With greater contact comes more conflict, and I think that greater conflict will lead towards more practical warfare, where the point is to kill your opponent. In OTL, I think that the various cultures were able to develop their own basic set of rules and rituals, for instance in Mesoamerica the stylized warfare that the Aztecs did. In this ATL, the greater contact produces a more brutal style of warfare, ala Eurasia.
 
The largest mountain range inbetween Mesoamerica and the Great plains is the Sierra madre Oriental, and theres the entire mexican plateau which has a bump before reaching mesoamerica.

And also on one final note (I agree with most of your thoughts) the flower wars were more of an Aztec creation, and you shouldn't judge every civilization in meosamerica based off of them.
 
Of course, some varieties of camel did survive in South America and at least one, the llama, was domesticated as a pack animal and for its wool and meat.

One thing to consider about the horse is that it was one the last of the large ungulate mammals to be domesticated in the old world, suggesting that it was harder to domesticate, and that some prior knowledge and experience with animal husbandry might have been necessary before the horse was domesticated. Since there were no other large mammals domesticated in north america prehistorically, it is reasonable to speculate that north american natives lacking any prior experience with livestock would not have thought to, or been able to, domesticate purely wild descendents of pleistocene horses. At best they would be hunted and perhaps managed intelligently as a wild resource.

Following this logic, and considering the fact that the only area where large animals were domesticated in the Americas was the Andes, and presuming that horses also occur and survive in South America, I would suggest that the domestication of the horse would occur first in the Andes, in the context of a developing argricultural, urban, civilization. Horses would first be seen as meat and pack animals (it requires another conceptual leap to presume the wheeled vehicles would be introduced). Possibly, but not inevitably, people would learn to ride horses, creating faster communications and impacting military tactics and strategy, but that is really speculative.
Technological innovations require cross fertilization with equivalent developments elsewhere to acheive their greatest potential. Lacking such in the Andes, I suspect horses would remain little more than really big llamas in the economy and culture of Andean civilization.
 
One thing to consider about the horse is that it was one the last of the large ungulate mammals to be domesticated in the old world, suggesting that it was harder to domesticate, and that some prior knowledge and experience with animal husbandry might have been necessary before the horse was domesticated. Since there were no other large mammals domesticated in north america prehistorically, it is reasonable to speculate that north american natives lacking any prior experience with livestock would not have thought to, or been able to, domesticate purely wild descendents of pleistocene horses. At best they would be hunted and perhaps managed intelligently as a wild resource.

It wasn't a matter of experience... it was a matter of what could be domesticated... NA really lacked animals that were capable of domestication. The NAs had dogs, and did domesticate turkeys, but all the big animals on the continent were not domesticable. If horses/camels had been there and been domesticable, they would have been. The NAs did use dogs to pull travois, so it would have been a short step from using dogs to using horses... riding them would have been a further step, but one they would have come up with in time. However, like European horses, they would have to have been selectively bred up to be larger...
 
It wasn't a matter of experience... it was a matter of what could be domesticated... NA really lacked animals that were capable of domestication. The NAs had dogs, and did domesticate turkeys, but all the big animals on the continent were not domesticable. If horses/camels had been there and been domesticable, they would have been. The NAs did use dogs to pull travois, so it would have been a short step from using dogs to using horses... riding them would have been a further step, but one they would have come up with in time. However, like European horses, they would have to have been selectively bred up to be larger...

The universal and very ancient domestication of dogs and the keeping and breeding of captive turkeys in Mesoamerica and ultimately the US SW does not figure into this issue. I think you are ignoring my point about how and when the horse was domesticated in the old world. Had no large, more easily domesticatible, animals been present in the old world other than the horse, I would argue that the horse may well not have domesticated in the old world either, or this would have been significantly delayed. The prior domestication of cattle and sheep and the experiences associated with this provided a critical stepping-stone before horses and related equine species could be domesticated.
 
The universal and very ancient domestication of dogs and the keeping and breeding of captive turkeys in Mesoamerica and ultimately the US SW does not figure into this issue. I think you are ignoring my point about how and when the horse was domesticated in the old world. Had no large, more easily domesticatible, animals been present in the old world other than the horse, I would argue that the horse may well not have domesticated in the old world either, or this would have been significantly delayed. The prior domestication of cattle and sheep and the experiences associated with this provided a critical stepping-stone before horses and related equine species could be domesticated.

ancient people domesticated every large animal that was capable of it. If our supposed American horses were domesticable, the NAs would have done it... it may have been later than the European ones, but it would have been done. The NAs had no problem domesticating llamas, in spite of the fact that they had no prior experience with big animals either. One reason for the later domestication of horses in OTL is that they were not native to the Fertile Crescent where the first civilization was... cattle, sheep, goats, and pigs were native there, so they were quickly domesticated. And yet the horse was domesticated and got down there later on. Before they had horses, the people in the FC did try to domesticate onagers, and failed....
 
when the European explorers arrived, no Native American Civilization actually used the wheel. Of course, the wheel wouldn't be of much use to ancient peoples if they didn't have suitable draft animals to pull carts. The presence of domesticated horses or camels would have made transport, and therefore trade and conquest much easier.
 
It would certainly have made the Native Americans much more mobile, and they would have had a very long period of time to be mobile and to have traversed what is today The USA, Canada, and Mexico before the arrival of European explorers.

Being more mobile means various tribes/Indian Nations/culture groups would have had a lot more exposure to each other, traded with each other, intermarried with each other, and formed political and military alliances with each other. In TTL European explorers will in several cases find some very large, powerful groups/nations/alliances with huge territories compared to what they had in OTL.

None of this is going to prevent the westward movement in The USA and Canada, but it will make it more difficult, may make it take longer, might make it somewhat bloodier. The plight of Native Americans might not be as bad as it was in OTL because some of these Native American groups will be in a stronger and better bargining position with regard to the European settlers/White Americans. Some things in the relationship between Native Americans and Whites is going to be different than it was in OTL.
 
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