Anti Nazi agreement 1939

[Derek Jackson]

WI the USSR and the UK and France all saw just how evil and dangerous Hitler was and formed an alliance then.

Does Nazi Germany collapse for economic reasons?

Does Hitler still start a war?

If he goes to war between 1939 and 1941 against all three larger European powers how long does it last?

[mattw101]

I think an earlier POD is needed. Stalin's likely to be pretty pissed that he wasn't invited to Munich.

[grdja83]

In early 1939. and late 1938. it might have happened. In freaking Churchill's Memoirs (so im not talking about "world radical socialist website source") he clearly states that:

After Hitler and Mussolini created the "anti Cominterna pact", Stalin was not only sending feelers, but openly trying to get UK and France to talk about a defensive pact against Hitler. UK and France refused time after time. They werent certain the war was unavoidable by diplomacy, it wasn't the right time. Poles and Czechoslovakia might object to Soviet troops eventually used against Germany from their soil.

I seriously think that between the lines I see that Churchil and most of West hoped for Nazis and Stalin's Bolseviks to exterminate eachother.

And so, after months of attempts to negotiate with UK and France, last of them in early summer of 1939. Stalin said fuck you and made a deal with Ribbentrop buying time.

And thats the Churchill's version of events. And you dont get more anticommunist than the Bulldog.

[CanadianGoose]

I happen to believe that grdja83 is up to something. To describe French and British attitude toward USSR at this point, follow this link:
http://www.google.ca/search?gbv=2&hl...bing+baku&meta=

According to De Gaulle, in winter of 1940 some "crazy heads that were thinking more of how to destroy Baku than of resisting Berlin."

[Faeelin]

The situation is a little bit more complicated then that.

The USSR was angling for the occupation and annexation of the Baltic States, with military bases in Eastern Poland and Finland. The West, naturally, balked.

Moreover, after the purges of the 1930s, there was doubt about whether or not the USSR's military would be effective. To some observers it looked like a giant with clay feet, and there were doubts about its ability to support an offensive into Poland.

The Polish, understandably, were leery about having Russian forces in their country.

Plus, the Soviets thought that the West wasn't really interested in defeating Hitler; they wanted to scare them off and come to a rapproachment.

So, IMO it's harder to fix than it first looks.

[Wozza]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

The situation is a little bit more complicated then that.

The USSR was angling for the occupation and annexation of the Baltic States, with military bases in Eastern Poland and Finland. The West, naturally, balked.

Moreover, after the purges of the 1930s, there was doubt about whether or not the USSR's military would be effective. To some observers it looked like a giant with clay feet, and there were doubts about its ability to support an offensive into Poland.

The Polish, understandably, were leery about having Russian forces in their country.

Plus, the Soviets thought that the West wasn't really interested in defeating Hitler; they wanted to scare them off and come to a rapproachment.

So, IMO it's harder to fix than it first looks.

It's very hard. It certainly cannot be done by Chamberlain.

I think possibly something quite radical - a very bloody Prague Spring for instance, which led to the fall of Chamberlain, might do the trick.

Churchill as a replacement would be unlikely, but a Churchill Foreign Secretaryship and trip to Moscow might offer a chance.

It's all a bit off the wall though.

[mattw101]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

The situation is a little bit more complicated then that.

The USSR was angling for the occupation and annexation of the Baltic States, with military bases in Eastern Poland and Finland. The West, naturally, balked.

Moreover, after the purges of the 1930s, there was doubt about whether or not the USSR's military would be effective. To some observers it looked like a giant with clay feet, and there were doubts about its ability to support an offensive into Poland.

The Polish, understandably, were leery about having Russian forces in their country.

Plus, the Soviets thought that the West wasn't really interested in defeating Hitler; they wanted to scare them off and come to a rapproachment.

So, IMO it's harder to fix than it first looks.

That sums it up nicely.