I've been thinking about this for a while, and I was wondering would it be like in a world where the United States had lost to Britain in the War of 1812. By losing, I mean being crushed and losing militarily. Basiclly, I want the USA to come to the peace table. What would the consquences be of such a lose and how would it effect the timeline? I would assume that the U.S. might lose some of the the Northwest Territory and might have to make payments to the United Kingdom. It would also force the United States to form a mucher larger, and possibly more aggresive military. What effect would all this have on New England?
What would happen if the United States had lost the War of 1812?
- Thread starter FederationX
- Start date
David S Poepoe
Banned
FederationX said:
Its only the Americans that say that they did win the War of 1812. For the most part it was a loss. An easy POD would be peace negotiations wrap up way before the Battle of New Orleans. Without Jackson's victory at New Orleans it truly would be a war lost.
Let me restate. It wasn't a true victory, but it really wasn't a true loss either. What I'm saying is that I want Britain to literally kick total ass of the United States. I want it so that Britain makes all of the terms in the peace talks. Happy?
Raymann
Banned
Well depends how you define loss? We lost because we did not accomplish our objectives but we won because we held off the British. Britian only tried to invade America through New Orleans (Washington was a raid) and that was after the war was over so America would have to try very hard indeed to lost that war. As for New England, whatever happened there would have been caused by the war, not because of direct British action
Bill Cameron
Banned
First, kill off the British Foreign Minister of the time. IIRC, he'd instructed the commisioners in Ghent to go easy on the US. Both sides had sort of stumbled into the war with the US failing to make their complaints heard and the UK understandably preoccupied in Europe. The peace talks had begun almost as soon as the war did; starting in early 1813 IIRC.
As for a harsher peace:
- Maine is gone. The British had landed in Castine and marched unopposed to Bangor in '14. The US might hold onto a few bits down near NH and MA, but Maine is gone.
- An Amerind buffer state is carved out of the Old Northwest. Detaching what would become the Michigan Territory would fit this nicely. This was one of the UK's war aims and one of their talking points during the negotiations in Ghent. Despite their treaty obligations from the ARW, the UK never really withdrew from the area until after 1815.
- Assuming Packenham beats Old Hickory (and you did mention the US getting thrashed even worse than in the OTL), New Orleans is lost. Lost and burned to the ground as Jackson had promised to do the latter if forced to retreat. The US would hold onto various parts of the upper Mississippi, but the UK would now own the mouth of that river. We'll get all sorts of butterflies from that bit.
- With the UK in possession of the lower Mississippi, they may be more interested in Florida then they were in the OTL.
- The New England states might just succeed. The convention was being held, with British agents in attendence, just as the RN sloop o' war arrived in NYC under a flag of truce with the peace treaty aboard.
You might have a radicalised, USA rump hemmed in between the UK north and south with a newly independent breakaway region to the northeast. Putting the future of the US in more deeply in the hands of the South would not a good thing. Check out KWIII's Decades of Darkness if you don't believe me.
Bill
As for a harsher peace:
- Maine is gone. The British had landed in Castine and marched unopposed to Bangor in '14. The US might hold onto a few bits down near NH and MA, but Maine is gone.
- An Amerind buffer state is carved out of the Old Northwest. Detaching what would become the Michigan Territory would fit this nicely. This was one of the UK's war aims and one of their talking points during the negotiations in Ghent. Despite their treaty obligations from the ARW, the UK never really withdrew from the area until after 1815.
- Assuming Packenham beats Old Hickory (and you did mention the US getting thrashed even worse than in the OTL), New Orleans is lost. Lost and burned to the ground as Jackson had promised to do the latter if forced to retreat. The US would hold onto various parts of the upper Mississippi, but the UK would now own the mouth of that river. We'll get all sorts of butterflies from that bit.
- With the UK in possession of the lower Mississippi, they may be more interested in Florida then they were in the OTL.
- The New England states might just succeed. The convention was being held, with British agents in attendence, just as the RN sloop o' war arrived in NYC under a flag of truce with the peace treaty aboard.
You might have a radicalised, USA rump hemmed in between the UK north and south with a newly independent breakaway region to the northeast. Putting the future of the US in more deeply in the hands of the South would not a good thing. Check out KWIII's Decades of Darkness if you don't believe me.
Bill
I like that scenerio, Bill, thank you. I have read much of KIII Decades of Darkness timeline and the United States he has created with the south in control is very dark indeed.
If New England secedes from the Union, is it possible that the South (or a couple of them - couldn't guess which) secede in like fashion? If Britain keeps Lousiana and/or New Orleans (smouldering ruins or not) might they eventually seek to be reincorporated into the Empire?
If Robert Stewart was killed as Bill mentioned things could have been very difficult for us especially if Spencer Perceval had live to take charge. in this scenario all of us would be signing god save the queen have free higher education and decent socialized medicine.
If we had lost militarily under the above situation Perceval would have made sure we ceded the entire country back to england plus all gained territory from 1775 to 1812. He would burn cities every time we refused and eventually we would give in, knowing we could always rebel again.
Another situation though is how would england have done with european wars if perceval had committed the forces needed to fight and take america. With perceval in charge the war of 1812 certainly would have gone on for a few more years. If it had gone on for another few yeasr with good ground being made and things looking poorly in europe would he have sent william to administer america? And upon her assention how would Victoria have dealt with a conquered america?
If we had lost militarily under the above situation Perceval would have made sure we ceded the entire country back to england plus all gained territory from 1775 to 1812. He would burn cities every time we refused and eventually we would give in, knowing we could always rebel again.
Another situation though is how would england have done with european wars if perceval had committed the forces needed to fight and take america. With perceval in charge the war of 1812 certainly would have gone on for a few more years. If it had gone on for another few yeasr with good ground being made and things looking poorly in europe would he have sent william to administer america? And upon her assention how would Victoria have dealt with a conquered america?
The effect of this would be clear, more substantial British involvment leaves the US on the proverbial ropes. Alas, after the Duke of Wellington is killed and his army destroyed at Waterloo by Napoleon, due to all the British soldiers that are busy in North America...
Gladi, what difference will it make? Wellington's army is down 15-20 thousand men from what it actually had, so he gets stomped before Blucher can even arrive. Then the Prussians are outnumbered by roughly three to one and...
So I bet the British start to wonder if those border regions were worth it.
So I bet the British start to wonder if those border regions were worth it.
In 1812 the US was much more populous than in 1776. We had three times the population (IIRC) because our doubling time was about 24 years. We were also spread out over the Appalachians, so there would not have been a two front war with the Indians as in the original Revolutionary war. We also had a government with taxing powers that we didn't have in 1776. The conservative personalities that made so many people loyalists were now loyal to the United States. Without quislings on the ground, Britain would have had a more difficult time putting us down.
They could have won the war by splitting us up. New England, the middle states, and the south would all have had different interests. The New England successionists were interested in building a bigger navy that could defend their merchant marine from England. If they split off into a country that was no bigger than the US in 1776 the English might have managed to beat them in a war afterwards since England was no longer fighting France like last time.
The middle states were interested in transport links with the Ohio. New York was about to build it's Erie canal. That's a magnet for Pennsylvania and New Jersey to sign on as a country. They would have insisted that New York break up into pieces, and New York would have agreed if Pennsylvania split tin half too. Maryland might have gone with the south, or with the middle states. I will assume that it went with the south.
The south was interested in Florida. They could have bought it from the Spanish and made it into a state to go with Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Missouri. The south would be as big as the middle states and New England. No civil war, either. Might be an argument about West Virginia, maybe.
If Napoleon had put off his return for a few more years he might have won. Wait for more soldiers to grow up and be ready to die in battle? Wait for the Ancien Regime in France to annoy more people? Say, in 1820 he lands on the beach and marches on Paris. There would be lots more support this time.
So there are three Americas, one Canada, and England is faced by Napoleon one last time. That would be an interesting timeline.
They could have won the war by splitting us up. New England, the middle states, and the south would all have had different interests. The New England successionists were interested in building a bigger navy that could defend their merchant marine from England. If they split off into a country that was no bigger than the US in 1776 the English might have managed to beat them in a war afterwards since England was no longer fighting France like last time.
The middle states were interested in transport links with the Ohio. New York was about to build it's Erie canal. That's a magnet for Pennsylvania and New Jersey to sign on as a country. They would have insisted that New York break up into pieces, and New York would have agreed if Pennsylvania split tin half too. Maryland might have gone with the south, or with the middle states. I will assume that it went with the south.
The south was interested in Florida. They could have bought it from the Spanish and made it into a state to go with Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Missouri. The south would be as big as the middle states and New England. No civil war, either. Might be an argument about West Virginia, maybe.
If Napoleon had put off his return for a few more years he might have won. Wait for more soldiers to grow up and be ready to die in battle? Wait for the Ancien Regime in France to annoy more people? Say, in 1820 he lands on the beach and marches on Paris. There would be lots more support this time.
So there are three Americas, one Canada, and England is faced by Napoleon one last time. That would be an interesting timeline.
Just as a point of order, there was no Canada in 1812, just a bunch of colonies If there'd been three Americas, I think Canadian Confederation might have developed differently as well.wkwillis said:
Bill Cameron said:
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!! It SECEDE...not SUCCEED. Unless you mean they might SUCCEED at SECEDING.
The British capture la Feat (spelling), and he is not there to help at the Battle of New Orleans. Jackson is captured and killed. The British go on to smash the US, which is reintigrated into the British Empire. They are heavily occupied to the next few decades. The States are combined into three Dominions, the Dominion of New England, the Dominion of New York, and the Dominon of Virginia. Here is the breakdown:
Dominion of New England (Capitol: Boston)
Conneticut
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Vermont
Dominion of New York (Capitol: Philadephia)
New York
New Jersey
Delaware
Pennsylvania
Maryland
Ohio
Dominion of Virginia (Capitol: Norfolk)
Virginia
Georgia
South Carolina
North Carolina
Kentucky
Tennesse
The British get control of Florida, and build a penal colony in the Everglades, call New Tyburn, where they send all of the remaining Founding Fathers, and any other out spoken folk. Using gators and Seminole Indians to keep them in place. There is the usual bit of grumbling, and a few small rebellions. The stuff hits the fan in 1834, when slavery is outlawed in the Empire. An armed rebellion breaks out in 1835, and lasts until 1840. By 1880, the Amercian Dominions are the jewel in the crown of the Empire.
Dominion of New England (Capitol: Boston)
Conneticut
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Vermont
Dominion of New York (Capitol: Philadephia)
New York
New Jersey
Delaware
Pennsylvania
Maryland
Ohio
Dominion of Virginia (Capitol: Norfolk)
Virginia
Georgia
South Carolina
North Carolina
Kentucky
Tennesse
The British get control of Florida, and build a penal colony in the Everglades, call New Tyburn, where they send all of the remaining Founding Fathers, and any other out spoken folk. Using gators and Seminole Indians to keep them in place. There is the usual bit of grumbling, and a few small rebellions. The stuff hits the fan in 1834, when slavery is outlawed in the Empire. An armed rebellion breaks out in 1835, and lasts until 1840. By 1880, the Amercian Dominions are the jewel in the crown of the Empire.
Is it really that possible for the United States to be fully reintegrated into the United Kingdom? There would be millions of PISSED OFF AMERICANS.
FederationX said:
Utterly impossible; the very idea of trying would have given the british cabinet a collective heart-attack.