AH Challenge: Preventing Italian unification

The Papal State democracy thread got me to thinking... how can you prevent Italian unification in the 19th century? Neutralizing the House of Savoy somehow, or at least directing its attentions elsewhere, seems to be one strong possibility. But how would you create an ATL 2008 where instead of Italy, you have some or all of Sardinia, Lombardy, the Two Sicilies, Tuscany, the Papal States, Modena, Parma, Lucca and Venice as independent states?
 

Rockingham

Banned
The Papal State democracy thread got me to thinking... how can you prevent Italian unification in the 19th century? Neutralizing the House of Savoy somehow, or at least directing its attentions elsewhere, seems to be one strong possibility. But how would you create an ATL 2008 where instead of Italy, you have some or all of Sardinia, Lombardy, the Two Sicilies, Tuscany, the Papal States, Modena, Parma, Lucca and Venice as independent states?
Depends on the POD. With a POD post-Napoleon, I don't think you can have it remain as fractured as you suggest, but you can certainly have it fractured into about 6 sizeable states(ignoring the small states like San Marino). Im thinking and independant Venice, perhaps extending to Venetia, a Papal state less the Papal legations, the continuation of a Kingdom of Naples, a Romagna state, and a Savoyard kingdom controlling the rest.
 
Butterfly away Napoleon, for a start.


No, Napoleon will be your best friend in neutralizing the Savoia: make the PoD in the XVIII centry and don't allow the cession of Corsica to France.

Now Napoleon will be born in a genoise Corsica and will end up as an independentist leader or, if Bonaparte's loialty swiches to Genoa, in the return of the "superba" as a world power like it was during the crusade.
 
No, Napoleon will be your best friend in neutralizing the Savoia: make the PoD in the XVIII centry and don't allow the cession of Corsica to France.

Now Napoleon will be born in a genoise Corsica and will end up as an independentist leader or, if Bonaparte's loialty swiches to Genoa, in the return of the "superba" as a world power like it was during the crusade.

Napoleon wasn't always destined for greatness... I don't think that the Genoese had quite the same level of great military schools that France had, and Napoleon wasn't really that great of a civil administrator. so if Napoleon had stayed in Genoa, the most he probably would have been would be an admiral, a footnote of history. At this point I think it is too late for Genoa to be a great power, they lost their chance centuries ago.

But if Napoleon did not go to France, the Revolution probably would have still happened, and nationalism would still develop. So the only way to really avoid unification is to avoid the French revolution before it gets out of hand.
 
French revolutio will happen with or without Napoleon, this is clear, but genoise used to have the smallest but the best artillery of the end of the XVIII century, the "italian Army" troops had to siege the city for a wole year and it feel to famine only after they managed to blocade the waters around the port with a duble naval ring just out of range of genoise cannons...
 

chronos

Banned
No problermo. All you have to have is A-H supporting Russia before the Crimean War, so she is not isolated afterwards, and the quarrel of Britain with Napoleon III slightly earlier - it nearly lead to war.

Also an efficient general to succeed Haynau and Radetsky in Italy and efficient warplanning like not giving the railways to French concessionaires so the French get defeated.

Alternately the AH foreign policy is slightly more efficient and fails to present an ultimatum to Piedmont when France had already decided to back down.
 
Napoleon wasn't always destined for greatness... I don't think that the Genoese had quite the same level of great military schools that France had, and Napoleon wasn't really that great of a civil administrator. so if Napoleon had stayed in Genoa, the most he probably would have been would be an admiral, a footnote of history. At this point I think it is too late for Genoa to be a great power, they lost their chance centuries ago.

But if Napoleon did not go to France, the Revolution probably would have still happened, and nationalism would still develop. So the only way to really avoid unification is to avoid the French revolution before it gets out of hand.

Call me crazy, but I don't think that Napoleon Bonaparte's life prior to the French Revolution would have created enough ripples to influence whether or not the French Revolution ignites or not.

I would urge anyone who believes that ethnic nationalism is the end all and be all of how national borders in Europe were decided to look at Germany, and notice that the Netherlands and Austria are separate countries, despite the fact that all three countries speak basically the same language. It is very possible that Northern Italy with Milan, Venice, and maybe Florance, would see itself as a separate country from southern Italy, or that the winds of fate keep two countries who speak the same language from ever uniting (Germany and Austria for instance).
 
Top