Challenge: keep the US from being a Superpower post 1945.

WyldCard4

Banned
Challenge: keep the US from being a Superpower post 1945.
First of all I have read a lot here so I realize this is difficult, that is why this is a challenge, and you can’t use any weapons of mass destruction or end of the world scenarios.
Make the US not a superpower for at least the span of time from 1986 to now with a POD no earlier than 1945.
 
Keep the the US from being the most powerful nation in the world... after the rest of the industrialized world has just blown its entire industry up, the US has made a killing off a war economy to get out of the depression, AND the US has already figured out how to demobilize and the basics of post-war settlement, after gaining a nuclear monopoly? With the Red Armies sitting on Eastern Europe, inspiring fear and a desire for protection from Western Europe? When the US has just built the biggest military transportation network in history?


Sure, no problem. Yellowstone Volcano goes off, combined with a mega-hurricane. The US still is bigger and stronger than most of the world combined, but is too busy putting its own house in order to care too much beyond MAD deterrent.
 

WyldCard4

Banned
Keep the the US from being the most powerful nation in the world... after the rest of the industrialized world has just blown its entire industry up, the US has made a killing off a war economy to get out of the depression, AND the US has already figured out how to demobilize and the basics of post-war settlement, after gaining a nuclear monopoly? With the Red Armies sitting on Eastern Europe, inspiring fear and a desire for protection from Western Europe? When the US has just built the biggest military transportation network in history?


Sure, no problem. Yellowstone Volcano goes off, combined with a mega-hurricane. The US still is bigger and stronger than most of the world combined, but is too busy putting its own house in order to care too much beyond MAD deterrent.
End of the world scenarios are banned, and you have to 41 years to do it.
 
Keep the the US from being the most powerful nation in the world... after the rest of the industrialized world has just blown its entire industry up, the US has made a killing off a war economy to get out of the depression, AND the US has already figured out how to demobilize and the basics of post-war settlement, after gaining a nuclear monopoly? With the Red Armies sitting on Eastern Europe, inspiring fear and a desire for protection from Western Europe? When the US has just built the biggest military transportation network in history?


Sure, no problem. Yellowstone Volcano goes off, combined with a mega-hurricane. The US still is bigger and stronger than most of the world combined, but is too busy putting its own house in order to care too much beyond MAD deterrent.


Probably not enough. Dreadful as they are the effects are mostly local and could be shrugged off.
 
End of the world scenarios are banned, and you have to 41 years to do it.
You're missing the point. As of 1945, the US was already a Superpower. Your challenge is the equivalent of "have the Pope not be Catholic" after the Church is already well established. It's a non-starter, because the basic assumption (that the US can be prevented from becoming a superpower) has already been disproven (the US is already a superpower. IE, it can't not become what it already is.)
 
1942
Germany takes Moscow, Leningrad.

Summer 1945
Russian Forces slugging thru Belarus, Retakes Leningrad.

September 1945
Sunrise Berlin and Frankfurt, Germany Surrenders.

Novembre 1945
Sunrise Hiroshima And Nagasaki, Japan Surrenders

1946
US begins demobilization.

1947
Marshall plan begins Reconstruction of East Europe

US begins removing most troops from Germany.

1949
Israel takes all of Mandate, declares Trans Jordon as Palestinian's Homeland.

1952
Japan signs peace treaty, US begins removing troops from Japan and unified Korea.

1955
US Military drops to Pre Pearl levels

1956
French defeated in Vietnam, US declines to get involved in Decolonialism.
Britain, France, take Suez canal, Israel takes Sinai

1957
Castro Brothers captured, executed.

1958
Bastisto Overthrown, new Government promises continued good relations with US.

1973
ROC/PRC war, the ROC manages to destroy the PRC landing force before the Beach.
US sells replacement Equipment but otherwise remains unengaged in the Problem.

1976
Ayatollah Kamani assassinated in Paris.

1982
Saddam invades annexes Kuwait. World Yawns. Britain increases Aid to Arabia.

1989
US Force levels fall to 1939 per capita levels.

1991
Israel/Iraq war Saddam Killed. Britain increases forces in Yemen, Oman.
Increases aid to Arabia.

1993
Yugoslavia collapses, US declares it to be a European Union Problem.

2001 9/11
Terrorists Crash 4 hijacked Airliners into London, to destroy the Great Satan.
 
This is a hard one.
May be Britain standing firm at Suez and leaving NATO taking France, New Zealand, South Africa and Australia with it into a new alliance.
The EEC and Old Commonwealth then bring tariffs against US goods.

Then military resistance to the Federal government in the Deep South against the anti-segregation laws.
Which then develops into a long terrorist campaign after the US government wins the military side of things.

That’s about as close as I can get to damaging the USA.
 
End of the world scenarios are banned, and you have to 41 years to do it.
That's hardly an "end-of-the-world" scenario. Hurricanes happen all the time, and the Yellowstone Caldera is the largest active supervolcano on the continent. Having both happen at roughly the same time is unlikely, but that's "really bad luck" unlikely, not "alien space bats" unlikely. And it's not going to mean the end of the world, moreover.

The problem is, it's not likely to be enough. "Superpower" is a relative term: it's not enough to make the U.S. weaker, you need to have a significant portion of the rest of the world strong enough vis-a-vis the U.S.A. as well. And by 1945 that's impossible to prevent. If you're talking about a situation where the U.S. is a superpower post-1945, but stops being one by 1986, that's easier, but still not easy. If the Cold War goes hot and is followed in close order by a Yellowstone eruption and a massive hurricane, then maybe. And I can see the U.S. in relative decline by that point, but over that time span the only two plausible explanations I can see are world war or act of God. And neither of those is a guarantee, either.
 

WyldCard4

Banned
That's hardly an "end-of-the-world" scenario. Hurricanes happen all the time, and the Yellowstone Caldera is the largest active supervolcano on the continent. Having both happen at roughly the same time is unlikely, but that's "really bad luck" unlikely, not "alien space bats" unlikely. And it's not going to mean the end of the world, moreover.

The problem is, it's not likely to be enough. "Superpower" is a relative term: it's not enough to make the U.S. weaker, you need to have a significant portion of the rest of the world strong enough vis-a-vis the U.S.A. as well. And by 1945 that's impossible to prevent. If you're talking about a situation where the U.S. is a superpower post-1945, but stops being one by 1986, that's easier, but still not easy. If the Cold War goes hot and is followed in close order by a Yellowstone eruption and a massive hurricane, then maybe. And I can see the U.S. in relative decline by that point, but over that time span the only two plausible explanations I can see are world war or act of God. And neither of those is a guarantee, either.
Yes I understand that it is at 1945 I did mean that it should not be by 1986.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
 

KunlunShan

Banned
Well, for this to work I'd have to see the Soviet Union go on the offensive in 1940 and steamroll Europe before the US can get to it. Also remember that you need China to keep good relations with the USSR and for Japan to be hostile to the US but not lose the war, if it happens.

(READS FIRST POST) HOLY SH*T!!!!

oops. Um, maybe the USSR wins over most of the world and causes the US economy to collapse or something?
 
Whe don't have to destroy America, just remove the Military/industrial Complex.

In 1939 the US Economy was rated at 700+ compared to Britain, France Germany 200'something, Russia's & Italy's 100'something, and Japans <-100
[I think the figures are off in some cases but are illustrative]

Yet despite the US have a Economic potential larger than the 4 biggest powers in Europe, No one considered the US a Superpower.

Starting in 38~39 the US began building for the coming showdown.
By 1946 Whe had a Air Force larger than the rest of the allies combined.
A Navy larger in all classes, than all the other Participants, on both sides Combined.
And was Second only to Russia in total number of Troops.

By 1950 Whe had Mothballed 90% of the Air Force and Navy, Discharged almost all the Soldiers. Our military was in Free fall and Shrinking.

If not for the Korean war, whe would probably have hit 1939 level by 1955.

My TL Post#6-- With Russia coming out of the war with 1939 Borders, An Unified Korea, and no US involvement in Vietnam or Cuba, would allow the US to return to the Isolation slumber of pre WW2 America.
 
UK now richer than the USA.

LIVING standards in Britain are set to rise above those in America for the first time since the 19th century, according to a report by the respected Oxford Economics consultancy.
The calculations suggest that, measured by gross domestic product per capita, Britain can now hold its head up high in the economic stakes after more than a century of playing second fiddle to the Americans.
It says that GDP per head in Britain will be £23,500 this year, compared with £23,250 in America, reflecting not only the strength of the pound against the dollar but also the UK economy’s record run of growth and rising incomes going back to the early 1990s.
In those days, according to Oxford Economics, Britain’s GDP per capita was 34% below that in America, 33% less than in Germany and 26% lower than in France. Now, not only have average incomes crept above those in America but they are more than 8% above France (£21,700) and Germany (£21,665).
“The past 15 years have seen a dramatic change in the UK’s economic performance and its position in the world economy,” said Adrian Cooper, managing director of Oxford Economics. “No longer are we the ‘sick man of Europe’. Indeed, our calculations suggest that UK living standards are now a match for those of the US.”

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article3137506.ece

Maybe the time is coming that the thread suggests.
 
Whe don't have to destroy America, just remove the Military/industrial Complex.

In 1939 the US Economy was rated at 700+ compared to Britain, France Germany 200'something, Russia's & Italy's 100'something, and Japans <-100
[I think the figures are off in some cases but are illustrative]

Yet despite the US have a Economic potential larger than the 4 biggest powers in Europe, No one considered the US a Superpower.

Starting in 38~39 the US began building for the coming showdown.
By 1946 Whe had a Air Force larger than the rest of the allies combined.
A Navy larger in all classes, than all the other Participants, on both sides Combined.
And was Second only to Russia in total number of Troops.

By 1950 Whe had Mothballed 90% of the Air Force and Navy, Discharged almost all the Soldiers. Our military was in Free fall and Shrinking.

If not for the Korean war, whe would probably have hit 1939 level by 1955.

My TL Post#6-- With Russia coming out of the war with 1939 Borders, An Unified Korea, and no US involvement in Vietnam or Cuba, would allow the US to return to the Isolation slumber of pre WW2 America.

Good point, but how about starting with a ground war against the Soviets. I know this is VERY well-tread ground. Perhaps Yalta ends with no agreement. And then I'm sure any number of border provocations early on can be exacerbated into full-scale engagement. But the closer to WW2 this occurs, the better.
I don't feel qualified to go into specifics, but if there's a war against the Soviets, fought almost exclusively by Americans, I'm guessing it's going to be rather bloody. Possibly they even fight in China. And US aid floods into every country that wants it while the war goes on, hopefully jump-starting their ravaged economies to get them back involved in the fight.
And in the end if the Soviet Union collapses or is pushed back into Russia, there is no reason to ever form the M/I complex. Also, I can imagine a situation where Americans are now utterly weary of world affairs and try their best to go back to isolationism. I can't imagine it will be totally effective, but maybe enough that NATO isn't formed, especially without Warsaw to counter.
Then of course at home, unemployment starts skyrocketing, racial tensions spill onto the streets, things get messy. Maybe the New Deal is brought out of mothballs to deal with things, and the US spends the next thirty years trying to set up a self-sufficient, self-reliant and equitable social democracy.
 
here is my shot at this

POD: American Civil War

Confederate army disbands into small guerilla units and conducts a brutal asymmetric war throughout the occupied south. This forces the reconstruction to be long and brutal and military occupation never really ends for the south.

Things calm down after a few decades, due to many southerner's realizing that they are firmly under the Union heel, however there are brief glimmerings of hope in the secessionists' eyes as several times, pro-secession parties and members of the democratic and republican parties are elected to the national stage and bring the issue to the forefront, but little is accomplished. Until Europe went crazy.

During WW1, OTL's Zimmermann Telegram never happened. Instead, the Kriegsmarine ran guns and contraband to the southern states via U-Boats and surface smuggling across the Rio Grande and Gulf from a very turbulent, and if not pro-German, at least German friendly Mexico. With guns in the hands of southerners for the first time since the Civil War, it was time for payback. When the US entered the War against Germany, the southern cities exploded into riots and racial violence, while the countryside was paralyzed with guerilla attacks.

America mobilized and hit back hard against the rebels, and enacted the brutal tactics practiced in the Philippines during the war there. Thousands of southerners died in the fighting and chaos that ensued. Although their rebellion was crushed, they had hope again.

During WW2, the Germans and the Japanese ran guns and explosives and other material to the south with near impunity in 1941 and 1942. Tens of thousands of weapons, hundreds of tons of explosives and military advisors were brought in. Although there were interceptions of both subs and smuggled goods, far too much got through.

In june 1944, as the D-Day operation was underway and millions of allied troops were anywhere but on the mainland US, the south rose again. All summer long, they battled and fought and became organized. Pro-secession senators and congressmen, those who had managed to escape or be away from Washington at the time of the revolt anyway, organized a government and declared independence. Although they were only recognized by the Axis Powers and a few neutrals, this gave the government legitimacy with the southern people and the second civil war was on.

Their cause was doomed from the start, however. They had little industry, no heavy weapons or armor, and virtually no air force or navy, only what few units they could capture from the government. Although millions of troops were overseas, thousands were still occupying the south, and tens of thousands more were stationed or in transit across the nation.

Because most of the war material was needed in the Pacific and European theaters, the Southern Front only saw a small number of armored and air units at play. This would only serve to drag the war out longer and force the army to fight house to house. And they did.

At the signing of the German Armistice, the United States was in shambles. While still strong in terms of industry and manpower, her domestic infrastructure was mangled by a sustained and enthusiastic guerilla offensive. Martial Law was in place in the major cities and designated combat zones, and the population was as shell shocked and frightened as any European population.

The northern and western cities were largely intact, but there was damage everywhere you looked. From bullet holes to craters from car and truck bombs, every major city had its share of them, but none more than in the south. Richmond, Wilmington, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Atlanta, Miami, Mobile, New Orleans, Birmingham and Montgomery were largely in ruins and resembled many of the cities in Europe, due to the ferocious fighting, and the countryside wasn't much better. Guerilla units were still making trouble occasionally in these areas, but the real battles were in Kentucky, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas and Texas. These areas hadn't been "repatriated" by Federal troops yet, and the self styled "Confederate Regulars," which were little more than promoted irregular units, were still in action. The Confederate Government was located in Vicksburg, Mississippi, but whenever they broadcast it was always from "somewhere in the Confederate States."

By the time of the Surrender of Japan, the war was officially over in the states as well. The Confederate "Government," was threatened with an atomic bomb, and they immediately caved in to avoid a Kokura or Nagasaki on American soil. The American bluff (there weren't any bombs available in the states at the time) worked and the second civil war ended in another defeat for the south. Guerilla warfare and terrorist campaigns continue through the present day.

With over half of the continental United States, from Virginia to Florida to Arizona in utter ruins, the Americans will adopt an America First program and spend years rebuilding and recuperating from the trauma of WW2. There will be no military adventurism, and the Cold War won't be quite as cold ITTL.

(I came up with and wrote this in about 10 mins, there are obvious bloopers that i could figure out with time, but this was just an exercise.)

EDIT: SHIT! for some reason, i didn't see the "no-POD earlier than 1945" line. How on earth did i miss that? ; _ ;

ok, this submission is null and void. F- for me.
 
UK now richer than the USA.

LIVING standards in Britain are set to rise above those in America for the first time since the 19th century, according to a report by the respected Oxford Economics consultancy.
The calculations suggest that, measured by gross domestic product per capita, Britain can now hold its head up high in the economic stakes after more than a century of playing second fiddle to the Americans.
It says that GDP per head in Britain will be £23,500 this year, compared with £23,250 in America, reflecting not only the strength of the pound against the dollar but also the UK economy’s record run of growth and rising incomes going back to the early 1990s.
In those days, according to Oxford Economics, Britain’s GDP per capita was 34% below that in America, 33% less than in Germany and 26% lower than in France. Now, not only have average incomes crept above those in America but they are more than 8% above France (£21,700) and Germany (£21,665).
“The past 15 years have seen a dramatic change in the UK’s economic performance and its position in the world economy,” said Adrian Cooper, managing director of Oxford Economics. “No longer are we the ‘sick man of Europe’. Indeed, our calculations suggest that UK living standards are now a match for those of the US.”

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article3137506.ece

Maybe the time is coming that the thread suggests.

Did you even read the article? Or even understand the terms? It says that per capita Brits have a higher standard of living tan the US. As in, one for one on average a Brit has an equal or slightly higher standard of living. It says nothing about being richer as a country.

Depending on how you measure the size of the economy, the European Union combined just barely surpases the US. In this GDP chart from here, you can see comparitive GDP (Gross Domestic Product; how much a nation produces) from various countries. It's not the sole or necessarily best way of describing national wealth, but it makes the point. Notice how the US is 6.5 times higher?

RankCountryGDP (Billion $)
1United States12,980
g.gif
2China10,000
g.gif
3Japan4,220
g.gif

4India4,042
g.gif
5Germany2,585
g.gif

6United Kingdom1,903
g.gif

7France1,871
g.gif

8Italy1,727
g.gif
9Russia1,723
g.gif

10Brazil1,616
g.gif





Whe don't have to destroy America, just remove the Military/industrial Complex.


In 1939 the US Economy was rated at 700+ compared to Britain, France Germany 200'something, Russia's & Italy's 100'something, and Japans <-100
[I think the figures are off in some cases but are illustrative]

Yet despite the US have a Economic potential larger than the 4 biggest powers in Europe, No one considered the US a Superpower.

Starting in 38~39 the US began building for the coming showdown.
By 1946 Whe had a Air Force larger than the rest of the allies combined.
A Navy larger in all classes, than all the other Participants, on both sides Combined.
And was Second only to Russia in total number of Troops.
Mostly true, though not recognizing the impact and size of the US economy doesn't mean it isn't there.
By 1950 Whe had Mothballed 90% of the Air Force and Navy, Discharged almost all the Soldiers. Our military was in Free fall and Shrinking.
This is the first mistake. The Air Force was cut back, true, not least because vast numbers of WW2 fighters are obselecent when there are new jets, which the US was working towards. The navy was similar, though you'll notice that moth mothballed navy vessels are the troop transports that there is no use for in peacetime, but were kept in ready-repair for war.

And the discharge of soldiers was more necessity than sign of weakness or fatigue; when you have tons of soldiers doing nothing who could be back home working, the choice is clear. The beauty of the US plan for stretching it so long and combining it with the GI Bill was that it dispersed the effect of so many returning at once, and pushed many into going to college.
If not for the Korean war, whe would probably have hit 1939 level by 1955.
Manifestly untrue; Cold War lines and commitments had already fallen in place by 48. The military industrial complex, which is just a name for something that exists even beforehand in peace, was already established. In a sense, it was there even in WW1 and in the post war, though the starving of the US armed forces (which would never happen post-WW2).
My TL Post#6-- With Russia coming out of the war with 1939 Borders, An Unified Korea, and no US involvement in Vietnam or Cuba, would allow the US to return to the Isolation slumber of pre WW2 America.
Except that your "TL" is so incomplete as to be laughable. It assumes that no matter how many PODs and butterflies you put on one side, other things remain exactly the same. Even the initial POD, that both Moscow AND Leningrad, is ASB. If they couldn't take Leningrad after focusing solely on it, how are they going to get BOTH, without destroying their entire Eastern Forces from the get go? The Soviets can use American supplies to cope for lost resources, but the Germans can't replace entire armies. That POD is a non-starter.
 
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