Were tactical nukes the only way for NATO to stop the Red Army?

Conventional thinking during a large part of the cold war was that NATO would not be able to stop the Red Army by conventional means. If the Russian Bear rolled westward it was felt that at some point NATO would have to resort to tactical nuclear weapons. This then could escalate into a full scale nuclear exchange.

Was this conventional view correct ? - or could NATO have stopped them conventionally?

Cheers

Garth
 
Sorry.

Let's say anywhere between 1970 - 1980.

My point was that I think this conventional view prevailed for most of the cold war.

Cheers

Garth
 
NATO and Soviet technology were somewhat on par throughout this period, the reason for most of this conventional thinking is in trying to get politicans and civilians scared enough to prevent a war. From 1970-1980 Thermo-nuclear bombs were the rule. This hung over leaders heads for a long time and one well placed missle could sent an EMP to disrupt all electronics in the region.
 
Generally speaking, I think that the "danger zone" was from the end of WW2 up until around the early 1980s...afterwards, a conventional stop by NATO forces is possible.
 
Generally speaking, I think that the "danger zone" was from the end of WW2 up until around the early 1980s...afterwards, a conventional stop by NATO forces is possible.

I would narrow it down even more. The Soviet threat in the late 40s and early 50s is way overblown.
 
Sorry.

Let's say anywhere between 1970 - 1980.

My point was that I think this conventional view prevailed for most of the cold war.

Cheers

Garth

Your lucky garth
because from 1950s to 1960s Nato had this Strategy
heavy Airdefences and Small forces with Tactical Nukes.
after 1970 NATO change to conventional Defence (with Tactical Nukes as last line of Defence)
with focus on More Troops, heavy Airdefences and Anti tank wapons.

had Nato stopt the Sovjet invasion of west Europe 1970s to 1980s ? YES !

see wat Nato Force dit in Iraq war of 1991, with Iraq army how used Sovjet hardware and Tactics
the USSR was losing on technological level on USA, Europe and Japan alrady in end of 1960s !
 
Sorry.

Let's say anywhere between 1970 - 1980.

My point was that I think this conventional view prevailed for most of the cold war.

Cheers

Garth

IMHO, after Korean war mobilization in early 1950's, NATO could have stopped WP assault with forces in place and mobilized in Europe, and after reinforcements from the colonies, sorry the US, could have rolled back WP forces, even without use of nukes.

One has to remember that conventional war, after ravages of Second World War, did not seem to be that a bright idea. The idea of introduction of tactical nukes was to prevent long conventional war.

Many accounts on supposed Western disadvantages during 1970's tend to do two things. First, they overemphasise importance of US forces. Sure, during and after Vietnam war the training and morale probably weren't that good. M60 Starship probably wasn't the best idea in tank development. But NATO was mainly an European thing, and by early 1970's there were a very large number of NATO troops with fairly good equipment and training. Centurions managed fairly well in Golan and Sinai. By 1970's European NATO forces also had a huge number of ATGM's which were at least as good,probably better, than AT-3's which had large impact on Jom Kippur war. Milan, for example, entered service in 1972. By 1970's European NATO forces were well equipped and trained and probably there wasn't a single area where their technology was worse than WP forces. With reserve forces the situation was slightly different, but one has to recall that WP reserves had towed artillery etc. right to the end of the Cold War.

Second, the importance of NATO ground based air defense is downgraded while WP air defense is taken into account. NATO had effective air defense system with Nike and Hawk belts, plus a load of various low level systems, including Redeye which was much better than what Soviets initially had. WP forces also did not have experience in punching through air defenses, I think the WP air power would have been wasted in Luftwaffe Christmas 1944 style trying to punch through NATO air defenses.

There are also many other factors, such as terrain, training advantage in defense of own territory etc...

But why was there the widely accepted conventional thinking that only via use of tactical nukes Europe could be defended? IMHO, the first reason is that if NATO forces and WP forces were evaluated realistically, defense budgets in NATO countries would have been cut. Any argument, truth, half-truth or outright lie is good for budget battle. The second reason is that by pressing the inevitable nuclear nature of coming war, the stakes were higher, thus making Soviets less likely to risk an invasion.

IMHO, that was one of the great errors of the Cold War. Realistically, after Korean War buildup the Western politicans would have had the option of mostly ignoring Soviet sabre-rattling, making it laughable. Much of the money wasted in overblown armaments could have been used more effectively fighting the Cold War in two fronts were battle was to be won; by spending money on developing countries and consumer propaganda to the East. For example, in case of Estonia, where citizens could watch Finnish tv, the local Party officials had to try to assure that Finnish commercials, showing supermarkets outflowing with food, were just propaganda...
 
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There are also many other factors, such as terrain, training advantage in defense of own territory etc...

This is perfectly correct, most of my time in the TA was spent training in the FDR for a defensive battle against the "Orange" forces. The Bundeswehr reserve units would have been particularly effective as they would have been defending their own "back yard" effectively.
 
One thing I've always wondered is in the case of war agianst NATO would the various Warsaw pact states turn on the Soveit Union? Would they see war against NATO as a chance to break away from the Soviets sphere of control? I mean the movements for independence had been around since after WW2 and really began to pick up steam in the late 70's early 80's as the Soviet Union weakened more and more as time went by. So I wonder would Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, etc. turn their weapons on their communist governments and soviet forces in order to gain indepedence?
 
One thing I've always wondered is in the case of war agianst NATO would the various Warsaw pact states turn on the Soveit Union? Would they see war against NATO as a chance to break away from the Soviets sphere of control? I mean the movements for independence had been around since after WW2 and really began to pick up steam in the late 70's early 80's as the Soviet Union weakened more and more as time went by. So I wonder would Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians, etc. turn their weapons on their communist governments and soviet forces in order to gain indepedence?

Given a reasonable opportunity, yes. But not as long as they had reason to believe the Soviets were winning. The CIA's exile community programme had all but destroyed the potential for armed resistance by systematically delivering resistance leaders to the KGB in the 50s. Also, we should not underestimate the power of patriotic anger in defending the homeland. Depending on how the war goes, they might well end up lifelong enemies to NATO.
 
Also, we should not underestimate the power of patriotic anger in defending the homeland. Depending on how the war goes, they might well end up lifelong enemies to NATO.

In the case of NATO fighting a defensive campaign there would be no provocation of WARPAC members patriotism. As long as NATO refrained from advancing into WARPAC member states there wouldn't be an adverse effect on relations.

Also and very significantly could the Landstreitkrafte be persuaded to fight the Bundeswehr and inflict casualties on FDR civilians
 
In the case of NATO fighting a defensive campaign there would be no provocation of WARPAC members patriotism. As long as NATO refrained from advancing into WARPAC member states there wouldn't be an adverse effect on relations.

I think the fundamental issue here is aerial bombing, always a big factor in every NATO war plan. If it is less than entirely obvious that the USSR started the war (and there are plenty of diplomatic flashpoints around), goodwill should not be presumed. The first thing many Warsaw Pact citizens see of NATO will be their cities turned into firestorms and their infrastructure bombed to rubble. There is still sa good chance that the arriving troops will find cooperative populations (I can't envision large-scale insurgencies unless the whole thing is very badly mishandled), but would anyone risk their lives for the sake of the people who just did this? "Hi, we just done nuked your capital with its thousand-year art treasures, blown up your house, shot your son and burned your daughter and grandchild to an agonising death in a bombshelter. Wanna be best friends?"

Also and very significantly could the Landstreitkrafte be persuaded to fight the Bundeswehr and inflict casualties on FDR civilians

I'm pretty sure both German forces would have been willing to fight the other, if neither enthusiastically. AS to civilian casualties, that is basically incidental. War is war. You might well get serious protests if NVA troops are ordered to execute hostages or round up political prisoners, but I can't see any Soviet officer dumb enough to do that.
 
"Hi, we just done nuked your capital with its thousand-year art treasures, blown up your house, shot your son and burned your daughter and grandchild to an agonising death in a bombshelter. Wanna be best friends?"

I thought we weren't using nukes in this TL. With bombing kept to interdicting transport it would not alienate the non-Russian WARPAC members and be a more effective use of NATO airpower.

I'm pretty sure both German forces would have been willing to fight the other, if neither enthusiastically. AS to civilian casualties, that is basically incidental. War is war. You might well get serious protests if NVA troops are ordered to execute hostages or round up political prisoners, but I can't see any Soviet officer dumb enough to do that.

I used to ask, carefully of course:D, Bundeswehr soldiers I worked with how they felt about the prospect of fighting the GDR. Mostly they didn't believe it would happen as they were in more communication with relatives in the GDR than was generally known at the time and did not think the Landstreitkrafte would obey orders to attack Bundeswehr units.

They felt the Russians would try to deploy non-German WARPAC members to attack the Bundeswehr units, I am sure the Poles would have done that with enthusiasm. Then used the Landstreitkrafte against other NATO members.

Of course once the battle was joined that plan would all fall apart into a bag of nails.
 
Actually, it was the Red Army who would use nuclear weapons to destroy the first line

of Nato. After that East-German/USSR/Polish tanks would walsh over the remaining units. Resistance, mostly from West-German units and some Brits/American tank divisions would not be able to stop this wave. They stop at the Rhine. American air superiority will not be able to stop them. France under Mitterand would switch sides or remain neutral. Simultaneous attacks on Norway and Italy would leave Nato to be pushed back to Spain and Brittain and Middel Europe. Pending if the war escalates into an intercontinental nuclear war or if America is able to train and equip and transport a massive tank army to europeit will probably mean an occupation of Northern, western and Southern Europe.

Then we will have to wait to the inevitable Economical collapse of the USSR
 
of Nato. After that East-German/USSR/Polish tanks would walsh over the remaining units. Resistance, mostly from West-German units and some Brits/American tank divisions would not be able to stop this wave. They stop at the Rhine. American air superiority will not be able to stop them. France under Mitterand would switch sides or remain neutral. Simultaneous attacks on Norway and Italy would leave Nato to be pushed back to Spain and Brittain and Middel Europe. Pending if the war escalates into an intercontinental nuclear war or if America is able to train and equip and transport a massive tank army to europeit will probably mean an occupation of Northern, western and Southern Europe.

Then we will have to wait to the inevitable Economical collapse of the USSR

I don't think so. If the Nuclear Weapons go flying into the air the escalation is fairly inevitable. Even if in some magic way only tactical nukes are kept in use, the Warsaw Pact as the offensive force will suffer more than NATO defensive forces.

Btw, how about French, Dutch, Danish and Belgian forces? And American air superiority? Will European NATO Air Forces just roll over and surrender? Moreover, if we're talking about 1970's or 1980's, WP IADS will take a terrible toll upon attackers. French neutrality or switching sides? No way. French "withdrawal" from NATO was just political gesture.

What I think, would have happened is that WP forces would have been only able to make minor gains against staunch NATO resistance. Western Germany is not flat desert, but full of places suitable for destroying enemy armoured superiority via close AT weapons, ATGM's and artillery. There would be widescale discipline breakdowns as WP forces would wonder the marvels of Western economics development, as well as discontent due to heavy casualties. The WP leadership would have to decide between escalating conflict into nuclear stage or some kind of cease-fire.

As for Norway, WP offensive would have been stopped cold in Narvik. Western naval superiority throughout the Cold War would have been good enough to stop any ambitions of amphibious landings. Heck, even the Royal Norwegian Navy could have stopped Soviet amphibious attempts by itself. After that the Norwegian Army, supported by amphibious flankings of USMC and RM 3 Cdo would have been ready for counterattack.

The same story goes for WP attack on Denmark. Danish navy, even by itself, would have been strong enough to prevent amphibious attack on Denmark. Supported by Bundesmarine, there's no chance for East German/Polish/Soviet attempt to succeed. Even if WP managed to stage the landing by itself, Danish forces would have been strong enough to counter-attack them.

As for Italy, the Soviet offensive would have to be performed through Austria and/or Yugoslavia, through Alps. No way for it for succeed.
 
I don't think so. If the Nuclear Weapons go flying into the air the escalation is fairly inevitable. Even if in some magic way only tactical nukes are kept in use, the Warsaw Pact as the offensive force will suffer more than NATO defensive forces.

Btw, how about French, Dutch, Danish and Belgian forces? And American air superiority? Will European NATO Air Forces just roll over and surrender? Moreover, if we're talking about 1970's or 1980's, WP IADS will take a terrible toll upon attackers. French neutrality or switching sides? No way. French "withdrawal" from NATO was just political gesture.

What I think, would have happened is that WP forces would have been only able to make minor gains against staunch NATO resistance. Western Germany is not flat desert, but full of places suitable for destroying enemy armoured superiority via close AT weapons, ATGM's and artillery. There would be widescale discipline breakdowns as WP forces would wonder the marvels of Western economics development, as well as discontent due to heavy casualties. The WP leadership would have to decide between escalating conflict into nuclear stage or some kind of cease-fire.

As for Norway, WP offensive would have been stopped cold in Narvik. Western naval superiority throughout the Cold War would have been good enough to stop any ambitions of amphibious landings. Heck, even the Royal Norwegian Navy could have stopped Soviet amphibious attempts by itself. After that the Norwegian Army, supported by amphibious flankings of USMC and RM 3 Cdo would have been ready for counterattack.

The same story goes for WP attack on Denmark. Danish navy, even by itself, would have been strong enough to prevent amphibious attack on Denmark. Supported by Bundesmarine, there's no chance for East German/Polish/Soviet attempt to succeed. Even if WP managed to stage the landing by itself, Danish forces would have been strong enough to counter-attack them.

As for Italy, the Soviet offensive would have to be performed through Austria and/or Yugoslavia, through Alps. No way for it for succeed.

Thanks for your reply. But after the Warchaw warplanes came ahead it turned out that they intended to use nuclear weapons to obliterate the Nato's forward defence positions. The massive Warchaw pact tank units and - if any resistance would be found - liberal use of battlefield nuclear weapons would lead to or an escalation nuclear war (NATO is not going to tollarate that its troops would be pounded by nuclear weapons - so tit-for-tat nuclear attacks resulting in a intercontinental nuclear war. Western and East European societies destroyed beyond recognition). Secondly the strategic reserve in Europe would be exhausted soon and pending on American reinforcements would basically mean that they would run out of amunition! (I base this fact that during the Balkan wars in the 1990's after two weeks of bombing regular - European based depots were EMPTY and pending on American supplies). Also tanks and other weaponary would not be able to be ordered and made in time except from brought over from the USA.

Basically the ratio of armour and manpower will in the end be decisive. Remember that most nato armies were - at that time - conscript armies and that pacifism as very popular in western europe
 
The question was asked and answered in the 1980s by the Naval War College's Global Wargame Series (I & II).

Before then everybody assumed it would nuclear. Further, the Europeans demanded (and used as an excuse for low conventional defence budgets in the 70s) the nuclear "tripwire". Although the war wouldn't stay conventional, from around 1970 to 1980 Warsaw Pact would have won assuming, magically, everybody didn't go nuclear. Post 1980 the next generation of equipment and higher Western defence budgets means NATO wins on the ground unless the war is very short.


Global Wargames 1979-1983 established that the conventional warfare worked to Blue's advantage and that Red was better served by a short-to-medium term conflict. Longer conflicts resulted in Western industrial superiority winning the war.

Horizontal escalation also worked to Blue's advantage.

The summary was thus:

• Blue/NATO appeared unlikely to win a short, conventional war in the central region, and

• There was a strong possibility that nuclear escalation would be disadvantageous to all involved.

• Therefore, a strategy that provided a better chance for Blue/NATO success was that of protracted, conventional war.

Issues of particular focus included the following:

• The absolute necessity for the prompt use of strategic warning.

• The requirement to examine military strategies for protracted, conventional war.

• The need to explore the longer term effects of horizontal escalation.

• The central importance of preplanning for resource management and industrial mobilization.

• The benefits of early identification of technological needs and the organization of the scientific community to support initiatives of “Manhattan Project” stature.



Global Wargames 1984-89:

Principal findings of the series can be summarized as follows:

• A NATO/Warsaw Pact war would be difficult to start but virtually impossible to conclude on a negotiated basis.

• What constitutes “victory” and “defeat” can be perceived very differently by Blue and by Red.

• Although contemplation of nuclear use tends to change for both sides with time and circumstance, early escalation by Blue is probably unnecessary and unwise.

• The huge material expenditures involved in waging modern, conventional war require pre-planning of resource management and industrial mobilization.

• Offensive use of military forces is critical in throwing Red off timeline and, at sea, creating strategic options and protecting SLOCs.

• Although maritime success is critical to Blue conduct of the war, translation of that success into negotiating leverage is elusive.

• Regardless of Blue policy preference/strategy, a NATO/Warsaw Pact war in which alliances remain firm and nuclear weapons are not used will probably become protracted.

Assuming continued domestic support and alliance cohesion, the validity of the Blue strategy of protracted, conventional war rested on two conditions that these games called into question:

• The ability of Blue to generate or to accure from other sources the equipment necessary to sustain the conflict until industrial mobilization occurred was problematic.

• There was a distinct possibility that the very success of the Blue strategy would drive Red to some form of nuclear escalation.



Rapidshare link to the papers
 
The question was asked and answered in the 1980s by the Naval War College's Global Wargame Series (I & II).

Thanks for the most interesting link, but I think you left out one crucial sentence:

...events of the late 1980s and early 1990s would appear to show that the Global "Red Team" seriously overestimated the capabilities of the Warsaw Pact, particularly with regard to the seemingly endless parade of Red Strategic Echelons thrown against NATO forces on the Central Front.

(p. 131)

I don't agree with analysis that WP would have a chance to win in, say, 1953-1980 timeframe with conventional arms. Combined arms assaults have been notoriously difficult even against enemies with substantial disadvantages in training and equipment. Even the Coalition assault on 1991 war required months of preparation against vastly inferior enemy and a utterly total aerial superiority. An WP assault on NATO forces after, say, 1953, would more look like Israeli assault on Lebanon in 2006.

Even if we leave the US out of equation, the WP situation for 1970's looks bleak. Just equipment-wise, what do we have? Pact tank formations mostly equipped with T-55's and T-62's, vulnerable towed artillery, fairly good MICV for it's age, BMP-1, which was very vulnerable to every AT weapon in NATO inventory, ancient C3 links very vulnerable to ECM, formations which required much civilian trucks for mobilization etc.

And what did NATO have? Good, new tanks (AMX-30, Leopard I, Chieftain), massive number of ATGM's (Milan, Swingfire etc.), good infantry AT-weapons (Carl Gustaf, Panzerfaust, M66 etc.), modern sp-artillery (M-109).

In the air, WP had a limited number of MiG-23 fighters with MiG-21 as the mainstay of fighter force against NATO's Mirage III's, V's and F-104's. WP had neither quality or quantity advantage. (if you look at the operational availability). WP IADS was of high quality though, but on the offensive side one must take vast number of NATO Nike and Hawk missiles into account.

At sea, WP never had the capability of seriously contesting NATO naval superiority, or even to manage a guerre de course of Kriegsmarine WW II style. NATO's navies outnumbered their WP counterparts not only qualitatively but also in quantity.

Most importantly, with exception of British Army, a professional force of traditional high quality, European NATO armies of 1970's were not places where one got job if there was no other option available, but highly trained conscript forces using the best men of each age class. Conscript forces, after all, are superior to professional forces if long enough training period is available, and in Cold War Europe there was enough time.

To sum it up, I have hard time seeing where the gap was. If there had been political will and more efficient use of resources NATO budgets could have been kept way lower than OTL.
 
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