Hitler dies late 1937: Goehring takes over

[Johnrankins]

How does European history change with Goering as the Fuhrer instead of Hitler?

[Slacker]

I don't think Goering would've taken over in '37-wasn't he on the outs with the Nazi party for a period in the late 30s?

Moreover, if Goering had taken over, you probably wouldn't have had much of a war-Goering was against the war and tried all he could to delay/prevent it.

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Slacker

I don't think Goering would've taken over in '37-wasn't he on the outs with the Nazi party for a period in the late 30s?

Moreover, if Goering had taken over, you probably wouldn't have had much of a war-Goering was against the war and tried all he could to delay/prevent it.

Goehring was the most likely candidate as Himmler wasn't big yet, Goebels had little support outside the Nazi controled media and Rittentop was a joke. Who are you going to put in his stead? You are probably right about WWII though.

[Electric Monk]

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

Goehring

Doesn't have an "h" and is spelled like so: "Göring" or "Goering" (if you don't have an "ö" around).

Anyway. If he does take over Germany isn't going to war. He didn't believe his Luftwaffe could beat the RAF. However that places Germany in a large financial crisis (without the economy looting spree they went on) if they continue the pace of re-arming that they did IOTL.

[Homer]

Originally Posted by Electric Monk

Anyway. If he does take over Germany isn't going to war. He didn't believe his Luftwaffe could beat the RAF. However that places Germany in a large financial crisis (without the economy looting spree they went on) if they continue the pace of re-arming that they did IOTL.

Germany would go to war - but later and better prepared. Goering was not against a war. He was against a new war against the same Allies of WWI. Thus he'd be more careful. More oriented towards diplomacy.

Second, with Goering "ruling" the Reich, someone else would effectively rule, and Goering would only go for representation, which in fact would serve Germany quite well - umm, from a Nazi-point of view that is.

[Electric Monk]

Originally Posted by Homer

Germany would go to war - but later and better prepared. Goering was not against a war. He was against a new war against the same Allies of WWI. Thus he'd be more careful. More oriented towards diplomacy.

Second, with Goering "ruling" the Reich, someone else would effectively rule, and Goering would only go for representation, which in fact would serve Germany quite well - umm, from a Nazi-point of view that is.

a) Germany could not go to war later as they were out of money, and facing economic collapse. Their looting of the Czech economy (and Poland, and France) are the main reasons they were able to continue to fight.

b) Germany rearmed at the right time, placing them ahead of the Western allies weaponry and before the next generation of Western weaponry that would make Germany's forces rather less useful. In fact I've heard at least one revisionist theory that Chamberlain essentially sacrificed Eastern Europe to buy time for British rearmament.

c) The sequence of implausible events IOTL—particularly the lost plans leading to the German drive through the Ardennes—is unlikely to be repeated. At the least different political leadership in the UK or France might be less willing to let the Germans grab things.

Therefore this Germany may face an expensive war in Czechoslovakia & France (possibly Norway as well, if British troops get ashore) and bog down to some degree. Thus preventing their looting of OTL, and making German forces seem much less awe-inspiring.


However, in the end I don't think Goering would have gone to war at all. Germany would have stepped down purchases, and worked to get what it wants in a diplomatic fashion. Say everything up to OTL Poland, plus Danzig. If it was over a couple more years and there was clear evidence German armed forces weren't growing as fast (and, perhaps, a clever set-up to get Danzig + corridor from the Poles).

Regardless, a very different WWII if we get one at all. An even more different 50s/60s if we have a large stable Germany dominating Europe. Perhaps we get Western Europe versus Eastern/Central Europe versus USSR.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Assuming it is Goering who takes over (which as others have pointed out is not the most likely), the war may be over much faster. He was even more out of touch with reality than Hitler (which takes some doing), and was convinced that the Luftwaffe could do ANYTHING. Heck, he wouldn't try for Seeloewe - he'd go for Luftloewe! (An AERIAL invasion)

[Johnrankins]

Exactly WHO would take over? Himmler isn't big yet, Goebels influence was only in propeganda,Rittentop was laughed at,and Hess didn't have what it took. There are very few if any big names in the Nazi movement after they are discounted.

[DuQuense]

This is Before the Anchulss. Without Hitlers willingness to Gamble I doubt if Germany gets either Austria, or Czechsolvia.
?Without the agreements with Germany over Poland, would Russia have gone into the Baltics 1939?

[Admiral Canaris]

Originally Posted by Johnrankins

Exactly WHO would take over? Himmler isn't big yet, Goebels influence was only in propeganda,Rittentop was laughed at,and Hess didn't have what it took. There are very few if any big names in the Nazi movement after they are discounted.

Well, Göring was the most popular with the people, whatever that may account for... And don't forget Bormann, either. At this point, he was Hess's deputy, and already served as Hitler's secretary, gathering more power to himself. He was also solidifying his hold over the Party hierarchy and the Gauleiter (Nazi Province Leaders).

A not unlikely set-up would be Göring as figurehead/president and Bormann running the government behind his back, much like he did for Hitler but more extreme, as Göring will be less inclined to check him.

However, I do believe people are consistently underestimating Göring. During the war, he was every bit the apathetic wreck he's usually made out as, but both before (though, admittedly, I'm not sure it lasted into the late '30s) and after, he was a quite capable leader, especially if he could somehow be cured of his morphie addiction.

[Tolkiene]

Goering is probably one of the most underestimated Nazi leaders.

If Hitler dies some time between 1936 and 1942, Goering would have been his successor and he would have held the same powers as Hitler.

Shortly after the Night of the Long Knives, Hitler signed a secret decree stating that in the event of his death, Goering would become his successor (Hess was never ever intended to succeed Hitler. After all, he hardly had any sort of personality). Goering was supported by the military (he was no
party hack), had some of the Gauleiters in his pocket (Terboven, the Gauleiter of Essen and Governor (Oberpräsident) of the Rhine Province, Erich Koch, Gauleiter of East Prussia and Oberpräsident of that same
province)) and was the most popular Nazi satrap among the German people.

As for Bormann, in 1937 he was a nonentity. He might have been the deputy to Hess, but that did not mean that much then. Bormann mainly
gained power during the war, when he was able to worm his way into
Hitler's confidence and shield him from outside influences.

As for Goering's morphine addiction, there is some indication to assume that
it was just a myth. The following excerpt from "The Devil's Disciples" by
Anthony Read seems to indicate that.

"The rumours were never substantiated: the popular image of Göring as a
drug-crazed junkie is pure myth. Göring did in fact develop a mild addiction
around this time -- to paracodeine pills, after they had been prescribed by
his dentist as a painkiller. He was soon taking about ten a day, and continued to pop them until he was a prisoner in Morndorf after the war,
by which time he was swallowing up to 100 a day with no ill effects.
Paracodeine, which had just been developed by a German pharmaceutical
firm, was a derivative of morphine, but contained so little of the drug that
it was virtually non-addictive.
The American psychiatrist at Morndorf, Dr Douglas M. Kelly, stated that
Göring's normal dose of about twenty each morning and night was the
equivalent between three and four grains of morphine. 'This is not an
unusually large dose,' he wrote. 'It was not enough to have affected
his mental processes at any time.' Kelly decided that Göring took the
pills as a habit much like smoking, partly to be doing something with
his hands and mouth, and that he gained no particular stimulation
from them. As proof of his this, he weaned him off them quite
painlessly in the course of a few days, something that would
have been quite impossible with a genuine addiction, as
Göring's own earlier experiences demonstrated." (pg. 438-439)

One should also add that during the Nuremberg tribunal, Göring was in top
form and was able to play the role of Nazi Number One. If he had just gotten off from being a junkie, he surely would not have been so energetic.

As for Göring being lazy, one should recall that Hitler also had quite a lazy day, yet no one here suggests that Hitler was a puppet. During the Nazi
seizure of power, Göring was one of the most energetic Nazis, taking
over the police in Prussia and crushing civil liberties there, and later
arranging the liquidation of the SA with Himmler and becoming the
dictator of the German economy.

In the early months of the war, when Hitler had left Berlin with his staff
to witness the conquest of Poland, Göring was also quite energetic when
he headed the Council of Ministers for the Defence of the Reich (Ministerrat
für die Reichsverteidigung), chairing various sessions to organise the German war economy and thus acting as a sort of pseudo Prime Minister.

However, admittedly the Defence Council soon fell into disarray, partly due
to Göring's autocratic style, partly because many of its members (Funk, Frick, Lammers) were simply becoming nonentities (Lammers kowtowed to
Bormann, who hated Göring, Frick was of no importance since Himmler headed the police), which is why later on Goebbels tried to reactivate the
council through a conspiracy with Göring and Speer in 1943.

His aim was to be appointed as Göring's deputy in the Defence Council, with
Speer, Ley and Himmler becoming members as well, in order to give the Defence Council the authority to manage the home front and the war
economy and thus reduce the influence of the Committee of Three, which
was formed by Bormann, Lammers and Keitel. Naturally the conspiracy failed
but that's a different story.

So Göring could have succeeded Hitler in 1937 and I am convinced that he
would have wielded power. His style was autocratic and he thought big,
though he left the micromanagament to others, which was both an asset
and a flaw.

One man who could rise high in a Reich ruled by Göring was Erhard Milch, the State Secretary in the Aviation Ministry and Göring's ally and rival.

Ribbentrop was a joke. In 1937 he was not even Foreign Minister. Everyone in the party leadership hated him. One of the few things Göring, Goebbels,
Bormann and Himmler could all agree on was that Ribbentrop was an idiot,
so he would not have risen high. One should not forget that until the
seizure of power Ribbentrop had no contact with the party and was, so to
speak, as a Johnny-come late type character.

Goebbels might have been a formidable propagandist and would be quite
important from 1943 to 1945, but at this time he no power base. As for
Himmler, he might have gained control over the police, but the Waffen-SS
and the economic empire of his Order was still quite small and I doubt the
others in the party would have accepted him.

People such as Himmler, Goebbels or Bormann would have also required far
more party hacks dying, especially Himmler or Bormann, who were connected to a specific bloc (Himmler to the SS, Bormann to the party
bureaucracy). Goering on the other hand represented the ideal candidate
on whom all could agree on.

[PaleHorseRiding]

Goering would have taken Austria since he was the one who pushed for the speed of the aunshlauss sp The chezhoslovakia would probably been handled the same way. but just the sudetenland and have the rest as an ally

Poland would have been given time to respond and would have ended up in alliance.

If ww2 does happen it will happen in a very different way and with a bigger airforce

[Alratan]

Originally Posted by PaleHorseRiding

Goering would have taken Austria since he was the one who pushed for the speed of the aunshlauss sp The chezhoslovakia would probably been handled the same way. but just the sudetenland and have the rest as an ally

I can see the Anchluss, but would Goering have the strength to overule the generals over the Sudentenland?

Poland would have been given time to respond and would have ended up in alliance.

This seems unlikely but possible, I suppose. I think such questions would be obscured by the German government refocusing on internal matters such as digging themselves out of their economic troubles when the Reiksbank was threatened with default.

If ww2 does happen it will happen in a very different way and with a bigger airforce

The big question is what would Stalin do? I'm unsure whether there would be a Molotov-Ribbentrop Pack, and whether the Winter War would happen regardless.

[Wendell]

This is an informative thread.

[Rhysz]

I think Gohring would have been the eventual Fuhrer as well. Himmler was absolutely dispised by the German army. WW2 would have probbably ended up as a more west/east conflict.

[Johnrankins]

Originally Posted by Rhysz

I think Gohring would have been the eventual Fuhrer as well. Himmler was absolutely dispised by the German army. WW2 would have probbably ended up as a more west/east conflict.

True, and Goering's war record in WWI would have helped him dealing with the Wehrmacht.