Challenge: The Kirk of England

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to make England a country with a Presbyterian established church and majority by the present day with a POD no earlier than the death of John Knox.

[Philip]

Does it have to have Reformed doctrine or is a presbyterian polity enough?

What were Cromwell's views on church polity? Would he have supported a presbyterian polity?

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Originally Posted by Philip

Does it have to have Reformed doctrine or is a presbyterian polity enough?

Reformed. Notice that I wrote "Presbyterian", with a capital "P".

What were Cromwell's views on church polity? Would he have supported a presbyterian polity?

There's a reason Cromwell ended up fighting the Scots. Cromwell's strength lied in his New Model Army, and many of his soldiers were Independents who found a presbyterian church as objectionable as an episcopal one.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Philip

What were Cromwell's views on church polity? Would he have supported a presbyterian polity?

"I beseech you in the bowels of Christ to consider that you may be wrong" - Cromwell's famous plea to the Presbyterians of Scotland.

So no.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Thande

"I beseech you in the bowels of Christ to consider that you may be wrong" - Cromwell's famous plea to the Presbyterians of Scotland.

Doesn't leave much wiggle room, does it?

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Philip

Doesn't leave much wiggle room, does it?

Depends on the circumstances. Basically Cromwell is saying that he disagrees with the decision of the Kirk, on some issue and is calling on them to consider they may be human and hence fallible.

Have always liked this quote both because of the fascinating language and the simple point against closed minds. Think it was referring to one of the Scottish attacks on England during this period, in collusion with a Stuart monarch as it was about this time. However to assume from this, unless the rest of the quote includes an explicit identification that what he was disagreeing with was their basic religious views, would be a bit of a stretch. If it was their alliance with the Stuarts to impose their Kirk and the deposed monarch on England then the objection could be viewed as predominantly with their methods rather than their underlying aims. [Similarly, from what I have read the commonwealth viewed the occupation of Scotland differently from that of Ireland. The Scots were viewed as misguided in their opinions, and possibly future allies whereas the Irish Catholics were considered fundamentally wrong. This suggest that the problem may be with the political rather than explicitly religious views].

Steve

[Rocano]

Originally Posted by Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to make England a country with a Presbyterian established church and majority by the present day with a POD no earlier than the death of John Knox.

when you said kirk i thought u ment Star Trek

[MerryPrankster]

How Presbyterian do the Presbyterians have to be?

In the US, we've got the PC-USA which is not particularly Calvinist doctrinally anymore, while the PCA, Orthodox Presbyterian, etc. remain strongly Calvinist.

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

How Presbyterian do the Presbyterians have to be?

Even if it's not that Calvinist anymore, it should have been clearly so when it was established.