Challange: Serbs perceived by world as victims of Yugoslav War

Bright day
Well as the title says. Could you get Serbs to be perceived as the victims of Yugoslav War, with muss murders of Serb civilians and ethnic cleansing of Serb communities always entering all disuccion on topic? And any other stuff that you can make?

THe closer it is to OTL and the latter is the PoD the better, but no PoD after the war, like "everybody wakes up and realiyes that Serbs are the real victims".

Goal of this challange is to help me (and mazbe other) see how victims are made, what influence the public opinion and to genely broaden mine (and maybe other too) knwoledge on West Balkans.

I am most gratefull for anyone willing to take time contributing. Thank you.
 
hard to play victim when you start the war and start the massacres. well, it can be done, but I doubt Serbs can pull it off.
 
There are some problems.

One, the Serbs had more men, more guns, more tanks, more everything. They inherited most of JNA's equipment including the artillery and the air force. Hard to be victims when you're the biggest kid on the block.

Two, in Kosovo and Croatia the Serbs were the first movers, firing the first shots and starting the oppression (Kosovo) and ethnic cleansing (Croatia). Bosnia was more complicated -- it's really hard to say who started it -- so maybe have the world focus on Bosnia? But then we run into problem #1 again.

Three, the Serbs were pretty crap at public relations. They didn't have much to work with in the first place -- they were an oppressive, thuggish Communist regime segueing into a more oppressive, more thuggish violent kleptocratic nationalist regime -- and then they just weren't very good at selling their case. The Croats did an excellent job of painting themselves as the "Catholic, freedom loving, Europeans" defending themselves against the "backwards, eastern-looking, still Communist" Serbs; the Serbs had no good response to this.

So OTL, by the Dayton Agreement, pretty much nobody was on the Serb's side except for the Serb diaspora and a few lefties who thought Slobo was getting a raw deal for being a Socialist. (See Neil Clark, if you must. You'd have to be pretty damn dumb to think Slobo was anything but a Slobo-ist, but there are always a few.)

So, this is a really hard challenge.

About the only way it might perhaps work would be to make the Serbs' opponents even worse. Can't do much with the Kosovar Albanians one way or the other, but maybe painting the Bosniaks as slavering virgin-raping suicide-bombing jihadists... hmm. The problem there is, most Bosniaks were urban, educated and secular; they were the intelligentsia and the professional classes. Lots of beer-drinking, bikini-wearing, casual premarital sex-having Europeans, very hard to distinguish from your average Czech or Pole. Not great jihad material.

The Croats, now... if you could get a Croat leader even dumber and meaner than Tudjman, you might get someone who openly embraced the fascist Pavelic regime (instead of just being really coy and cute about it). A lot of Croats had a fondness for Nazi Germany; a certain minority still does. (I can attest that, as recently as 2002, _Mein Kampf_ was still being sold on the streets of Zagreb.) If you have a Croat government dumb enough to let itself be painted as neo-Nazis, then just maybe...

But it's really a stretch.


Doug M.
 

Thande

Donor
They were seen as the victims by a minority of commentators over here, especially in the early phases of the war - call it just the British sense of fair play, but there was a perception that big bad NATO was beating up the poor little Serbs. Of course this changed when the war crimes became public knowledge.
 
Im already regreting commenting this post, as I have a bad feelings were it will go. Resent history usualy is kinda touchy... :(


Three, the Serbs were pretty crap at public relations. They didn't have much to work with in the first place -- they were an oppressive, thuggish Communist regime segueing into a more oppressive, more thuggish violent kleptocratic nationalist regime -- and then they just weren't very good at selling their case. The Croats did an excellent job of painting themselves as the "Catholic, freedom loving, Europeans" defending themselves against the "backwards, eastern-looking, still Communist" Serbs; the Serbs had no good response to this.

So the Serbs was "crap at public relations" while the Croats were "excelent?"

Maybe this was an automatic result from your two first points? Or are you advocating that if the Serbs had been excellent in public relations and the Croats bad, the world would have disregarded one and two???

So OTL, by the Dayton Agreement, pretty much nobody was on the Serb's side except for the Serb diaspora and a few lefties who thought Slobo was getting a raw deal for being a Socialist. (See Neil Clark, if you must. You'd have to be pretty damn dumb to think Slobo was anything but a Slobo-ish, but there are always a few.)

Yes by Dayton, but then we are missing the storyline before. Initialy Slobo enjoyed a loot of friendly feelings from several countries, first of all France, but also in several others among them from Norway, as I can testify.

It took several masacres and decesive Croat military victories to turn this picture.

During the Serbs invation of Croatia propper and the continuing civil war there, quite a few regarded the Croats as the bad guys. Yes it gradualy changed, but IMHO the mess in Yugoslavia could perhaps have been less if the west had seen Slobo for what he was from the beginnig

The Croats, now... if you you could get a Croat leader even dumber and meaner than Tudjman, you might get someone who openly embraced the fascist Pavelic regime (instead of just being really coy and cute about it).

So Tudjman was both dumb and mean? Why is that? For standing up against Slobo and actualy defeating him? :rolleyes:

A lot of Croats had a fondness for Nazi Germany; a certain minority still does. (I can attest that, as recently as 2002, _Mein Kampf_ was still being sold on the streets of Zagreb.) If you have a Croat government dumb enough to let itself be painted as neo-Nazis, then just maybe...
Doug M.

This is BS :mad:

You can change "Croat" with very many other western contries, and the paragraph would be just as valid.
 
They were seen as the victims by a minority of commentators over here, especially in the early phases of the war - call it just the British sense of fair play, but there was a perception that big bad NATO was beating up the poor little Serbs. Of course this changed when the war crimes became public knowledge.

I've still not forgiven the Serbs for landing us with WW1... via about 3 different stops. Tinpot little place fully of shouty people.
 
I've still not forgiven the Serbs for landing us with WW1... via about 3 different stops. Tinpot little place fully of shouty people.

Well Bismark did say "The whole of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier". The bones of many Grenadiers from many countries have paid for the Balkans for nearly one hundred years now!
 
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Well, I might not be the most unbiased commentator, as the reason I've lived in Canada for than half my life is because of the unpleasantness that resulted from the break-up of Yugoslavia, but I think this is somewhat impossible. You can't really do what the Serbs did on such a great extent and win much sympathy from a majority of people. Like it has been mentioned, they had most of the military hardware; in fact, the JNA pulled all the military equipment from Sarajevo, which had one of the major military depots in Yugoslavia, well before any shots were fired. The only way I can imagine this scenario playing out is if somehow Serb politicians didn't gain effective control of power in Yugoslavia, which would require a much earlier PoD than the 90s. Personally, I rather despise all the leaders responsible for the break-up of Yugoslavia, regardless of ethnicity, religion, what have you, since they destroyed the childhood I should had and separated me from 95% of my family. But that's just me.
 
So the Serbs was "crap at public relations" while the Croats were "excelent?"

The Croats were better than the Serbs, yes.

It helped that several major European countries (Spain, Italy, Germany) started off pro-Croat, either because of the Catholic thing or because they'd spent the last twenty years summering on Croatian beaches.


Yes by Dayton, but then we are missing the storyline before. Initialy Slobo enjoyed a loot of friendly feelings from several countries, first of all France, but also in several others among them from Norway, as I can testify.

It took several masacres and decesive Croat military victories to turn this picture.

1) The friendly feelings disappeared pretty quickly. World opinion had turned firmly against Serbia by 1993.

2) There weren't any "decesive Croat military victories" until Operation Lightning and Operation Storm in 1995.



So Tudjman was both dumb and mean? Why is that? For standing up against Slobo and actualy defeating him? :rolleyes:

Pfft. No, Tudjman was mean and dumb because he was mean and dumb.

One example: Tudjman went far out of his way to provoke the Krajina Serbs to rebellion, with a lot of mean-spirited, pointless little laws and edicts. Viz., things like prohibititing the use of the Cyrillic alphabet, which the Krajina Serbs hardly used anyway, and firing thousands of Serbs from jobs in rural areas where there were no alternatives for them. That was mean.

Then, when the Krajina Serbs rebelled, Tudjman was totally surprised! And had no police or military solution ready! That was stupid.

(N.B., I'm not talking about Slavonia, where the rebel Serbs had JNA. Tudjman could have stomped the Krajina Serbs if he'd been ready.)


[Nazism in Croatia]

This is BS :mad:

No, it's not. And if you think so, then you don't know much about Croatia. Nazi and Nazi-like imagery and ideology was very popular in 1990s Croatia, and to some extent still is.

(Cripes, just look at Operations Lightning and Storm. Starting with the names, and then with the fact that they were openly designed to "cleanse the national territory". Even the Serbs weren't that open about their intentions.)

It makes sense when you think about it. Croatia was never an independent nation-state... except for 1941-44. The Pavelic regime was the only model they had. Of course the Yugoslav government never shut up about how evil Pavelic & Co. were. But in the heady years after independence everyone was discounting whatever the Yugoslav authorities had said. Of course the Belgrade government slandered poor Uncle Ante! Just another way of crushing our legitimate national aspirations!

So, fficially, Pavelic was partially rehabilitated as a man who'd tried to serve the nation in a difficult time. Unofficially, he was idolized as a national hero. His picture was everywhere. That was in the 1990s, but it's still not hard to find today. (Remember, this was a man who built and ran an extermination camp in imitation of the Nazis, and did it so well that even the Germans were sickened.)

Even today, it's not hard to find Croats who think that Hitler was misunderstood and, really, the whole thing was the fault of Communists and Jews. If you don't believe me, try any Croat forum online.

This is not to harsh on Croatia or the Croats; the Nazi thing is an unfortunate fluke of their history. But it's real, and not very nice.


Doug M.
 
International bankers can hold grudges for a long time. When the Serbs looted the national treasury and spent it to prevent the opposition from spending it first, the die was cast.
 
It helped that several major European countries (Spain, Italy, Germany) started off pro-Croat, either because of the Catholic thing or because they'd spent the last twenty years summering on Croatian beaches.

Yes no doubt about that. But my point is that there were just as many that were pro Serb.


1) The friendly feelings disappeared pretty quickly. World opinion had turned firmly against Serbia by 1993.

Disagree. The public opinion in Europe were perhaps starting to shift, but in government circles the Serbs still had several friends. And I also think that it is important to divide the shanged friendly feelings between the Bosniaks and the Croats. See next paragraph also.

2) There weren't any "decesive Croat military victories" until Operation Lightning and Operation Storm in 1995.

Tru, but that was my point. Not untill the Croats/Bosniaks themselves had changed the situation on ground, did NATO finaly take action. And a agreement (Dayton) finaly got accepted. A agreement that IMO were VERY Serb friendly.

Pfft. No, Tudjman was mean and dumb because he was mean and dumb.

:rolleyes:

One example: Tudjman went far out of his way to provoke the Krajina Serbs to rebellion, with a lot of mean-spirited, pointless little laws and edicts. Viz., things like prohibititing the use of the Cyrillic alphabet, which the Krajina Serbs hardly used anyway, and firing thousands of Serbs from jobs in rural areas where there were no alternatives for them. That was mean.

Then, when the Krajina Serbs rebelled, Tudjman was totally surprised! And had no police or military solution ready! That was stupid.

Oooookey. So it was Tudjman who was the starter of the Civil war in Yugoslavia? Right... :rolleyes:

(N.B., I'm not talking about Slavonia, where the rebel Serbs had JNA. Tudjman could have stomped the Krajina Serbs if he'd been ready.)

To be a person that tries to teach me history in the next part, you truly display a very selective knowledge yourselfe...

No JNA in Croatia????? :eek:

[Nazism in Croatia]

No, it's not. And if you think so, then you don't know much about Croatia. Nazi and Nazi-like imagery and ideology was very popular in 1990s Croatia, and to some extent still is.

(Cripes, just look at Operations Lightning and Storm. Starting with the names, and then with the fact that they were openly designed to "cleanse the national territory". Even the Serbs weren't that open about their intentions.)

It makes sense when you think about it. Croatia was never an independent nation-state... except for 1941-44. The Pavelic regime was the only model they had. Of course the Yugoslav government never shut up about how evil Pavelic & Co. were. But in the heady years after independence everyone was discounting whatever the Yugoslav authorities had said. Of course the Belgrade government slandered poor Uncle Ante! Just another way of crushing our legitimate national aspirations!

So, fficially, Pavelic was partially rehabilitated as a man who'd tried to serve the nation in a difficult time. Unofficially, he was idolized as a national hero. His picture was everywhere. That was in the 1990s, but it's still not hard to find today. (Remember, this was a man who built and ran an extermination camp in imitation of the Nazis, and did it so well that even the Germans were sickened.)

Even today, it's not hard to find Croats who think that Hitler was misunderstood and, really, the whole thing was the fault of Communists and Jews. If you don't believe me, try any Croat forum online.

This is not to harsh on Croatia or the Croats; the Nazi thing is an unfortunate fluke of their history. But it's real, and not very nice.


Doug M.

Oh, Im perfectly aware of Croatias history, dont worry. Also about their nazi history. My point was rather that this is just the same in very many other European nations. So no need to pretend that the Croats is a special case.
 
Oh, Im perfectly aware of Croatias history, dont worry. Also about their nazi history. My point was rather that this is just the same in very many other European nations. So no need to pretend that the Croats is a special case.

Well in Slovakia you have similar case. On one hand the Slovak National Uprising is a national holiday, on the other the declaration of Slovak State is national holiday too. The whole shtick is "but he was our bastard"!


Okay, now on to rest.

Indeed it seems that a problem is organization of Serbs. Even Krajina which was irredentist movement gained more from Yugoslavia than Croats.

Hmm what if no Republic of Krajina, but the Serbs there instead directly pledge themselves to Yugoslavia...?
 
Indeed it seems that a problem is organization of Serbs. Even Krajina which was irredentist movement gained more from Yugoslavia than Croats.

Indeed

Hmm what if no Republic of Krajina, but the Serbs there instead directly pledge themselves to Yugoslavia...?

That could spell doom for the croats. With all the initial pro Yugoslav/Serb sentiments this could work.

But it would depend on the JNA/Slobo restraining themselves, and I have problems seeing that happen... :(
 
Yes no doubt about that. But my point is that there were just as many that were pro Serb.

Among the major nations of Europe? No, not really. Russia, of course, and Greece. France started as a friendly neutral.

But by 1993 -- really, by late '92 -- Serbia was very isolated, with no friends other than Russia, Cyprus and Greece.

Note that all EU and NATO members signed on to the embargo against Serbia, and -- again with the exceptions of Cyprus and Greece -- were pretty good about trying to enforce it.


Disagree. The public opinion in Europe were perhaps starting to shift, but in government circles the Serbs still had several friends.

By 1993? Really?

Who are you thinking of?


Not untill the Croats/Bosniaks themselves had changed the situation on ground, did NATO finaly take action.

...we're talking about two different things, I think.

Operations Lightning and Storm were done with a lot of quiet support from the West... mostly the US, but Britain, Austria and Italy as well. The US military was training Croatia's troops from '92 onwards.

Bosnia was something else again. Still, even there world opinion was firmly against the Serbs long before Dayton.


And a agreement (Dayton) finaly got accepted. A agreement that IMO were VERY Serb friendly.

Here we agree. The Serbs, who were about 37% of the prewar population, ended up with 49% of Bosnia's territory. They also got to protect most of their war criminals and keep most of the ethnically cleansed refugees out.


Oooookey. So it was Tudjman who was the starter of the Civil war in Yugoslavia? Right...

...we'll have a more interesting conversation if you don't put words in my mouth, don't you think?

It's an open question whether a less stupid, more diplomatic and sensitive leader could have avoided the Serb uprising. But Tudjman didn't even try. He went far out of his way to antagonize the Serbs, very deliberately setting out to pick a fight.

It's like poking a mean dog with a stick. Maybe the dog would try to bite you anyway. Maybe it wouldn't. But poking it with the stick is asking for trouble.

Now, if he was trying to start a war so that he could ethnically cleanse the Serbs... well, that would be evil, but clever. But Tudjman set out to antagonize the Serbs, and then was not ready for the war that inevitably followed! His army wasn't ready, he had no tanks or heavy artillery, he didn't even deploy strengthened police units to try to hold strongpoints in Krajina. (He did send a few ordinary cops in -- just enough to give the Serb rebels some hostages). That's what I mean by stupid.


To be a person that tries to teach me history in the next part, you truly display a very selective knowledge yourselfe...

No JNA in Croatia????? :eek:.

Tch. No JNA in Krajina, is what I said.

My point: even though the Krajina rebels didn't have direct JNA support, Tudjman was such an incompetent that he STILL couldn't deal with their uprising. That's pretty bad.

Anyway, point is, the Croats could have done a much worse job of PR. I'm not sure if that would really help the Serbs, though.


Doug M.
 
Among the major nations of Europe? No, not really. Russia, of course, and Greece. France started as a friendly neutral.

But by 1993 -- really, by late '92 -- Serbia was very isolated, with no friends other than Russia, Cyprus and Greece.

Note that all EU and NATO members signed on to the embargo against Serbia, and -- again with the exceptions of Cyprus and Greece -- were pretty good about trying to enforce it.

By 1993? Really?

Who are you thinking of?

No one in particular. It is just my recolection of the time... :eek:

IMHO the reluctancy to act and the Serb friendly Dayton agreement suports my claim. But again this is my personal view.


...we're talking about two different things, I think.

Operations Lightning and Storm were done with a lot of quiet support from the West... mostly the US, but Britain, Austria and Italy as well. The US military was training Croatia's troops from '92 onwards.

Bosnia was something else again. Still, even there world opinion was firmly against the Serbs long before Dayton.

No I think we are talking about the same. To me the wars in Croatia and Bosnia more or less the same. Even tough the Croats can not claim to be totaly blameless in Bosnia... :(

And yes, US did a excellent job of getting the Croats to par and beyond the Serbs. But I have not seen claims of other than US involvment?

...we'll have a more interesting conversation if you don't put words in my mouth, don't you think?

Just had to check you know... ;):)

It's an open question whether a less stupid, more diplomatic and sensitive leader could have avoided the Serb uprising. But Tudjman didn't even try. He went far out of his way to antagonize the Serbs, very deliberately setting out to pick a fight.

It's like poking a mean dog with a stick. Maybe the dog would try to bite you anyway. Maybe it wouldn't. But poking it with the stick is asking for trouble.

Interesting analogy.

But what can you do if the dog is already growling at you?

Now, if he was trying to start a war so that he could ethnically cleanse the Serbs... well, that would be evil, but clever. But Tudjman set out to antagonize the Serbs, and then was not ready for the war that inevitably followed! His army wasn't ready, he had no tanks or heavy artillery, he didn't even deploy strengthened police units to try to hold strongpoints in Krajina. (He did send a few ordinary cops in -- just enough to give the Serb rebels some hostages). That's what I mean by stupid.

Well IMHO that justifies the term stupid atleast a bit more than in your first post;)

But do you seriousley think that JNA would have allowed Croatia to come to par military quietly?

An interresting POD would perhaps include Tudjamn to adhere to Martin Spegelj's suggestion of making the "Assult of the Barracks" during the initial Slovenian war.

Tch. No JNA in Krajina, is what I said.

Now that is a technicality. I must admit that I do not exactley cannot point to were all JNA units were stationed at the outbreak of hostillities. But the amount of JNA units in Croatia on a general basis makes your point about Kraina void.

My point: even though the Krajina rebels didn't have direct JNA support, Tudjman was such an incompetent that he STILL couldn't deal with their uprising. That's pretty bad.

Like I said, perhaps not directly and initialy, but certainly indirect. Later is obviously another matter...

Anyway, point is, the Croats could have done a much worse job of PR. I'm not sure if that would really help the Serbs, though.

Agree
 
IMHO the reluctancy to act and the Serb friendly Dayton agreement suports my claim. But again this is my personal view.

The reluctance to act was not because anyone liked the Serbs! It was because NATO was not configured for this kind of small conflict, and the EU (it was the EC then) wanted to try diplomacy... and then try it again... and then again.

It's true that some countries took a harder line against the Serbs than others. But nobody in Europe (except Greece and Cyprus) liked them. Keep in mind that "they're villains" is a separate question from "should we bomb them".

As for Dayton, that was a peace of exhaustion. There's no question that, given another six months, the Bosniaks could have pushed the Serbs back and regained a lot of territory. But by that time everyone had been fighting for four years, around 100,000 people were dead, another ~100,000 mutilated, over a million people were refugees, and the country's economy was completely destroyed. Everyone was willing to accept peace rather than continue fighting. But, again, this doesn't mean that anyone was favoring the Serbs.

The Serbs had a very negative image from late 1991 onwards, thanks to Dubrovnik and Vukovar. (How many Germans and Scandinavians had spent a weekend in Dubrovnik? Millions, probably. It was like shelling Disney World.) And after that, it just got worse and worse.


And yes, US did a excellent job of getting the Croats to par and beyond the Serbs. But I have not seen claims of other than US involvment?

It depends on what you call "involvement". For example, the Austrians sold the Croats a lot of, shall we say, dual-use equipment... stuff that was officially for civilian use, but that converted very easily to military use. And a lot of this stuff was sold cheap, with the sale funded by cheap loans from Raiffeisen Bank, which had close links to to Austria's ruling coalition. We're not talking small amounts of money, either... hundreds of millions of dollars, enough to build much of the logistical train for Operation Storm. Meanwhile there was a lot of back-and-forth travel of Austrian "military observers", at least one of whom later retired to work for... Raiffeisen Bank.

It was done very smoothly, with few fingerprints, so that even today there's no firm proof. But it's worth noting that all consecutive Croat governments have had very warm relations with Austria, and Raiffeisen today is by far the biggest foreign bank there.


Interesting analogy.

But what can you do if the dog is already growling at you?

Eh. The Krajina Serbs were a bunch of hayseeds. Mostly rural, mostly backwards. Slobo was trying to stir them up, and with some success -- they all had bleeding memories of 1941-44, when the Pavelic regime had tried to exterminate them (with some success... there used to be a lot more Serbs around there). But they shouldn't have been a serious threat; IMO it's possible they could have been placated (local autonomy, guarantees about things like the Orthodox Church and the Cyrillic alphabet, their own police), and even if not, it should have been possible to neutralize them. Tudjman just fumbled it from beginning to end.

(Croat nationalists get very excited about Operation Storm. They get less excited when you ask them how a bunch of lightly armed farmers, led by a dentist, were able to claw off a quarter of Croatia and then hold on to it for four years.)


But do you seriousley think that JNA would have allowed Croatia to come to par military quietly?

Well, they did OTL, didn't they? Of course it took four years, but still.

A better question is "what would Slobo have done if Tudjman had nipped the Krajina rebellion in the bud?" I suspect the answer is, not much. OTL Slobo treated the Krajina Serbs as useful idiots from day one.


An interresting POD would perhaps include Tudjamn to adhere to Martin Spegelj's suggestion of making the "Assult of the Barracks" during the initial Slovenian war.

Sounds like a good WI. Post it!


Now that is a technicality. I must admit that I do not exactley cannot point to were all JNA units were stationed at the outbreak of hostillities. But the amount of JNA units in Croatia on a general basis makes your point about Kraina void.

Yes and no. There were a lot of JNA units all around Croatia, sure. But all the heavy stuff was in Slavonia -- Vukovar, and the subsequent advance on Osijek, sucked up most of JNA's air, heavy artillery, and armor. (Most of it ended up sitting around doing nothing, but it was doing nothing in Slavonia, not Krajina.)

Krajina had no JNA unit larger than a light infantry brigade. More to the point, the JNA units in Krajina were ethnically mixed, and by summer 1991 all the Croat, Slovene, and Kosovar Albanian soldiers had left. And unlike the JNA units in Serbia and Slavonia, the Krajina units were cut off from resupply. So JNA ended up taking no part in the fighting -- the few JNA soldiers just sat in their barracks while Serb irregulars fought the Croats outside.

That's not to say that JNA had no effect. A lot of equipment and supplies drifted from JNA to the Krajina Serbs. Also, some JNA soldiers and officers moonlighted as advisors to the Serb militia. The most famous of these, of course, was Ratko Mladic -- before he was famous in Bosnia, he got started training Krajina Serb troops, and later leading them in battle. (This while he was still employed full time as a major in JNA...)

So JNA was there and had some influence. But it did no actual fighting in Krajina -- the Krajina Serbs did all that themselves.

Again, even with some help from local JNA units, the Krajina Serbs were just a bunch of hillbillies with guns. A competent military should have been able to roll them up in a couple of days... hell, in 1995 a competent military DID roll them up in a couple of days. But in 1991-2 they came close to knocking Tudjman over, and then in 1994 they cam even closer to winning autonomy and de facto independence. Which is pretty ridiculous when you think about it.


Doug M.
 
The Serbs had a very negative image from late 1991 onwards, thanks to Dubrovnik and Vukovar. (How many Germans and Scandinavians had spent a weekend in Dubrovnik? Millions, probably. It was like shelling Disney World.) And after that, it just got worse and worse.

Well Norway might be a special case here. Montenegro was the prefered destination to us. Add to this the fact that our current Prime Minister actually grew up in Beograd when his father, former foreign minister of Norway, was ambassador there...

Eh. The Krajina Serbs were a bunch of hayseeds. Mostly rural, mostly backwards. Slobo was trying to stir them up, and with some success -- they all had bleeding memories of 1941-44, when the Pavelic regime had tried to exterminate them (with some success... there used to be a lot more Serbs around there). But they shouldn't have been a serious threat; IMO it's possible they could have been placated (local autonomy, guarantees about things like the Orthodox Church and the Cyrillic alphabet, their own police), and even if not, it should have been possible to neutralize them. Tudjman just fumbled it from beginning to end.

And now you are putting words in my mouth... :D

Isnt that just the recipie for a junkyard dog :p:D

(Croat nationalists get very excited about Operation Storm. They get less excited when you ask them how a bunch of lightly armed farmers, led by a dentist, were able to claw off a quarter of Croatia and then hold on to it for four years.)

Ofcourse. Never fun to talk about bad memories :D

A better question is "what would Slobo have done if Tudjman had nipped the Krajina rebellion in the bud?" I suspect the answer is, not much. OTL Slobo treated the Krajina Serbs as useful idiots from day one.

But is this even possible? I understand that you think so, but Im not sure.

Yes and no. There were a lot of JNA units all around Croatia, sure. But all the heavy stuff was in Slavonia -- Vukovar, and the subsequent advance on Osijek, sucked up most of JNA's air, heavy artillery, and armor. (Most of it ended up sitting around doing nothing, but it was doing nothing in Slavonia, not Krajina.)

Krajina had no JNA unit larger than a light infantry brigade. More to the point, the JNA units in Krajina were ethnically mixed, and by summer 1991 all the Croat, Slovene, and Kosovar Albanian soldiers had left. And unlike the JNA units in Serbia and Slavonia, the Krajina units were cut off from resupply. So JNA ended up taking no part in the fighting -- the few JNA soldiers just sat in their barracks while Serb irregulars fought the Croats outside.

That's not to say that JNA had no effect. A lot of equipment and supplies drifted from JNA to the Krajina Serbs. Also, some JNA soldiers and officers moonlighted as advisors to the Serb militia. The most famous of these, of course, was Ratko Mladic -- before he was famous in Bosnia, he got started training Krajina Serb troops, and later leading them in battle. (This while he was still employed full time as a major in JNA...)

So JNA was there and had some influence. But it did no actual fighting in Krajina -- the Krajina Serbs did all that themselves.

Again, even with some help from local JNA units, the Krajina Serbs were just a bunch of hillbillies with guns. A competent military should have been able to roll them up in a couple of days... hell, in 1995 a competent military DID roll them up in a couple of days. But in 1991-2 they came close to knocking Tudjman over, and then in 1994 they cam even closer to winning autonomy and de facto independence. Which is pretty ridiculous when you think about it.

I think Im going to conclude that we basicaly agree to mutch of the hard facts, but disagree aboput their consequenses.

Nothing wrong with that, :)

and we have even managed to keep it rather civil :eek::D
 
About the only way it might perhaps work would be to make the Serbs' opponents even worse. Can't do much with the Kosovar Albanians one way or the other, but maybe painting the Bosniaks as slavering virgin-raping suicide-bombing jihadists... hmm. The problem there is, most Bosniaks were urban, educated and secular; they were the intelligentsia and the professional classes. Lots of beer-drinking, bikini-wearing, casual premarital sex-having Europeans, very hard to distinguish from your average Czech or Pole. Not great jihad material.

Actually that might have worked with Kosovaris. OVK was considered criminal organisation by many nations and Greeks and Italians were bitching about their drug trade to anybody who would listen. But when Kosovo boiled over it was a bit late, specially after Srebrenica.
 
Down in Israel there was always a loud minority talking about the Serbs being the victims. Might just be a sort of sympathy for so-called "neccesary opression".
 
about the only I could think of to do it would be to somehow not have the Serbs in Yugoslavia proper (after the breakup) arm the Serbs in the other states, and have someone else heavily arm the other factions, who would then turn on the Serbs there... you'd at least have sympathy for the Serbs in those states.

But that's pretty much ASB... just how would you get the Serbs in Yugoslavia to sit by and watch their fellow Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia, etc, get slaughtered and do nothing?
 
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