OK, this may be a little ASB, but how could you have a situation where Germany and Italy become unfiied nationstates well before 1871 while leaving England and France still split into separate principalities and 'geographical expressions' by that date ?
AH challenge- Germany, Italy unfiied countries before Britain, France
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
1st POD
Henry doesn't die in 1197. Makes his dynasty heriditary in Germany and Italy.
Henry doesn't die in 1197. Makes his dynasty heriditary in Germany and Italy.
Susano
Banned
Not ASB at all, if the POD is early enough.. the problem witH germany was that it inherited Charlemagnes imperial crown. Now, what if the West Frankish Empir,e Franc, somehow became the "Roman Empire", and not Germany? France would soon have many of the problem that IOTL Germany faced, mostly teh feud with the pope and his support for the nobles, while Germany coul dunit elike historically France did.
Grey Wolf
Donor
Susano said:
That is an excellent point
France even in the 15th century suffered from great nobles who would be greatest noble - Burgundy was prime amongst these but far from the only one. But loyalty to the crown and the idea that they were vying for the position under the crown prevented a complete breakdown
Within the HRE the various regional powers were a step further, looking primarily to themselves THEN at the empire or kingdom of Germany.
There is definitely sufficient scope to turn it around
Grey Wolf
Faeelin
Banned
Susano said:
I don't buy the idea that Germany was this weak, decrepit state because of the empire.
Frederick I, and Henry VI received massive amounts of gold from their Italian possessions; Frederick I's income, in fact, has been calculated as being the greatest in Europe at the time. (See Germany under the Salian and Hohenstaufen Emperors for this).
In fact, there's a strong case to be made that Germany's true tragedy was the interregnum after Frederick II and after Henry VI/before Frederick II. Germany was certainly one of the more centralized states in Europe by that point.
Compare Germany of, say, 1196 to France. Germany has a strong, rich monarch who receives tons of cash from the town, has broken the nobles, has achieved all of his basic geopolitical aims.
France has a massive power bloc under the Plantagenets threatening the very survival of the Capetian dynasty, is reduced to the Ile de France, has Flanders in its rear, and goes under interdiction soon.
England, however, is much harder; I think it's too small geographically to remain divided.
Susano
Banned
Well I think we can agree that the problem is that the centrifugal powers became too strong at a point. And for obvious reasons they always have had the support of the pope.
The nobles already had a too strong standing after the rights Frederick II. granted them. Of course the interregnum cemented and bettered their position, but even without it, Frederick II. had de fatco given away central government in Germany.
The nobles already had a too strong standing after the rights Frederick II. granted them. Of course the interregnum cemented and bettered their position, but even without it, Frederick II. had de fatco given away central government in Germany.
Max Sinister
Banned
AFAIK the development went differently in Germany than in Britain / France because they magaed vassalage in different ways: In all three countries, vassals of the king could give parts of their land to their own vassals, but there was a difference: In Germany, if some vassal of the king revolted against him, *his own* vassals were still bound to support him. In England and France, the lesser vassals were still bound to the king himself.