Challenge: A modern day independent Burgundy
- Thread starter DMA
- Start date
I mean the one established by Philip the Bold which went onto having a lot of dealings between England & France during the 100 years war. It collapsed after Charles the Bold was killed during battle.
If memory serves, Savoy was a different one (correct me if I'm wrong).
That'd be a good start as it was Charles the Bold who had no male offspring - or any cousin for that matter who could take over the Duchy.
If medieval Burgundy survived to the modern age, what would its national identity be like? What would make it culturally distinct from the nations of France, Germany, and Italy? I'm thinking of the specific Kingdom of Burgundy that was a vital component of the Holy Roman Empire. I know there are multiple Burgundies in history.
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Let Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. have three sons and after his retreat,
divide his territories among them. Thus he founds three branches of the house of Habsburg, the Austrian Branch, the Spanish Branch, and the Burgundian Branch.
Then you may have some chances to achieve that.
A key question is what happens with the Netherlands.
The Duke of Burgundy might become Protestant; but also otherwise,
it is probable that in solving the conflict with the Dutch more lawyers and negotiators and less pikesmen are employed.
This might yield a relatively large country between France and Germany, comprising todays' Belgium, most of the Netherlands, and the Franche Compt'e.
Now let's consider the alliance options of a Burgundian ruler ...
divide his territories among them. Thus he founds three branches of the house of Habsburg, the Austrian Branch, the Spanish Branch, and the Burgundian Branch.
Then you may have some chances to achieve that.
A key question is what happens with the Netherlands.
The Duke of Burgundy might become Protestant; but also otherwise,
it is probable that in solving the conflict with the Dutch more lawyers and negotiators and less pikesmen are employed.
This might yield a relatively large country between France and Germany, comprising todays' Belgium, most of the Netherlands, and the Franche Compt'e.
Now let's consider the alliance options of a Burgundian ruler ...
Boto
Under those circumstances I suspect it would probably be most allied with Germany. The HRE is already fairly disunited and de-centralised whereas by this time France is pretty much established as a centralised nation state [by the standards of the time]. As such it would be France that would be the prediominant threat to the independence of the Burgundian state. Technically it would probably be part of the HRE but given the nature of that organisation it would have a large degree of autonomy.
If it was successful and avoided the sort of foul ups with the Swiss that crippled it OTL, building up a modern and rich state it would later probably be a rival for the imperial throne with the Austrian Hapsburgs and other rivals to the imperial throne. [Changed that late bit after remembering you have a 16thC POD rather than the standard one of Charles the Bold not fouling up in the 15thC.
]Steve
If we're looking at Philip the Good's efforts to create an independent kingdom from 1419 onwards, a good bet might be for Henry V of England live a few years longer to be crowned King of France. By this point I think an Anglo-French union is practically impossible in the long term but such an event will drag the HYW out and weaken Valois power for decades, giving Burgundy more breathing space.
After Henry V dies, Henry VI will struggle greatly to hold onto France but his legitimacy will make it all very messy. Also if anything like the War of the Roses takes place, English attention will be diverted and the HYW will probably be over by the 1460s/1470s however English Kings might be keener in the future to try and seize French lands in the future due to their brief reign there. All in all the French can't concentrate on Burgundy or the other Duchies like Brittany, plus butterflies will see King Louis XI of France, the "Spider-King" never born, assuming some one less Machievellian takes the French throne, all in all Burgundy has a far better chance of surviving.
Economically Burgundy's power was the Flemish ports and despite Dijon being the true capital, Philip held court much of his reign in Brussels. As such come any Reformation-esque event, I'd imagine them going Protestant, however ironically their homelands around Dijon might not leading to plenty of problems.
A major problem for Burgundy would be seizing the lands that seperated their own, they did seize Lorraine in OTL in the 1470s, under Charles the Bold's reign but this was one of his many rash action that led to his death and the fracturing of his lands.
Say Charles is less 'bold' or simply the French can't offer decent opposition due to the war with England and a lesser king (Charles wasn't a moron but Louis XI was a genius). I think sheer wealth would have eventually seen the Burgundians gain a crown at some in the early 1500s.
One interesting thing to consider is how much a lasting Burgundy will change European military history, the collapse of such a large web of duchies, lordships etc. in a strategically vital area was a massive motivator for wars into the 18th century as evenyone tried to seize the them, a unified strong Burgundy may lead to stability of a sort but it will also means there's another serious player in European politics, and certainly with the Flemish ports the Age of Discovery will see Burgundian ships sailing the world.
In the long run Europe may become pretty unrecognisable but given the widespread nature of the state in the 15th century I think you may end up with Burgundy effectively becoming a united Low Countries and there's still chance that even that will be fractured by language, religion and ethnicity, although who knows what social movements and government plands may take place to unite or divided the people's of the country.
I think such a state could last into the 20th century if we're conservative about butterflies (ie the general course of history is similar to ours), perhaps a great or middle power, the industrial revolution will certainly be happening there and with a united polity the Low Countries may be one of the few places alnogside England that has a chance of kick starting an Industrial Revolution.
By today though I'd hazard the various groups of Germans, French, Wallon and Flemish/Dutch might end up parting into their own states if they haven't amalgamated (not impossible in 500 years).
After Henry V dies, Henry VI will struggle greatly to hold onto France but his legitimacy will make it all very messy. Also if anything like the War of the Roses takes place, English attention will be diverted and the HYW will probably be over by the 1460s/1470s however English Kings might be keener in the future to try and seize French lands in the future due to their brief reign there. All in all the French can't concentrate on Burgundy or the other Duchies like Brittany, plus butterflies will see King Louis XI of France, the "Spider-King" never born, assuming some one less Machievellian takes the French throne, all in all Burgundy has a far better chance of surviving.
Economically Burgundy's power was the Flemish ports and despite Dijon being the true capital, Philip held court much of his reign in Brussels. As such come any Reformation-esque event, I'd imagine them going Protestant, however ironically their homelands around Dijon might not leading to plenty of problems.
A major problem for Burgundy would be seizing the lands that seperated their own, they did seize Lorraine in OTL in the 1470s, under Charles the Bold's reign but this was one of his many rash action that led to his death and the fracturing of his lands.
Say Charles is less 'bold' or simply the French can't offer decent opposition due to the war with England and a lesser king (Charles wasn't a moron but Louis XI was a genius). I think sheer wealth would have eventually seen the Burgundians gain a crown at some in the early 1500s.
One interesting thing to consider is how much a lasting Burgundy will change European military history, the collapse of such a large web of duchies, lordships etc. in a strategically vital area was a massive motivator for wars into the 18th century as evenyone tried to seize the them, a unified strong Burgundy may lead to stability of a sort but it will also means there's another serious player in European politics, and certainly with the Flemish ports the Age of Discovery will see Burgundian ships sailing the world.
In the long run Europe may become pretty unrecognisable but given the widespread nature of the state in the 15th century I think you may end up with Burgundy effectively becoming a united Low Countries and there's still chance that even that will be fractured by language, religion and ethnicity, although who knows what social movements and government plands may take place to unite or divided the people's of the country.
I think such a state could last into the 20th century if we're conservative about butterflies (ie the general course of history is similar to ours), perhaps a great or middle power, the industrial revolution will certainly be happening there and with a united polity the Low Countries may be one of the few places alnogside England that has a chance of kick starting an Industrial Revolution.
By today though I'd hazard the various groups of Germans, French, Wallon and Flemish/Dutch might end up parting into their own states if they haven't amalgamated (not impossible in 500 years).
I totally agree. But to add some spice to it: I guess it is much harder - and less attractive! -- for the three Habsburg branches to keep up their principal agreement and solidarity. The Burgundian guy would be the most likely to step out of the line. As he were weaker than the Austrian and the Spanish rulers, he would seek an alliance with France, as the Rhenish Electors have done from time to time.
Thus Burgundy could either replace Bavaria or strengthen the Bavarian position in the 17th century as a staunchly Catholic, counter-refomatation state trying to curtail imperial power.
In order to conserve Burgundy until the present day, we need the Empire disintegrate more quickly and deeply than in OTL, which can happen as I have argued.
It may even happen in such a way that Burgundy and some other territories are unhinged from the Empire. But if that happens quickly and thoroughly enough, this gives the Emperor the opportunity to strengthen his power inside his remaining realm.
This could create the long-term existence of mutually independent France, Burgundy, Empire/Germany/Austria, and one or several other German states.
Jape, there you've pointed out a major problem with this whole challenge.
Such a conglomerate does not go well with the political and social fashion of the 19th century. So you are right that it is questionable whether our smart constructions would survive that period.
However, Belgium is as unnatural, in roughly the same spot on the map, and it still exists (but then, I have not checked the news today ...).
Alex Richards
Donor
I think eventually Burgundy will lose the Franche-Compté (perhaps at about the time France gained Alsace) leaving it as a United Netherlands.
Valdemar II
Banned
I agree, beside Burgundians would only have two ethnic groups, because it Dutch and Germans would likely stay united. So we start up with a state with populated with half/half, the language of the noble and court would be "French" (French was adminstrative language of Flandern and Brabant) likely the Picardian dialect, but the languages of the mechants and middleclass would "German" mostly the Low Franconian dialect. When/if the reformation comes along I could see a pressure to convert, because it likely would happen earlier, and the Burgundian dukes likely would tolerate the Protestant before the conversion (like many German princes did), they will likely convert to Lutheranism. This will create a split from French in France, which will likely be enough to create a unique Burgundian Romance culture and languages, while I could see in Flandern, Brabant and Holland the adoption of a Low Franconian bible instead of Luthers High German bible, which would be enough that they like the Dutch also split from the German nation. Burgudian would likely have trouble with the dualism between Romance nobles and the Germanic mechants, which would create a interesting political culture.
As Valdemar says I see the big conflict being between the Dutch middle classes and French nobility.
The bourgois and aristocracy were already at loggerheads in the time but to add in a big of a nationalist element too....
I'd think the country would eventually end up Dutch, I doubt it could hold onto Burgundy, either France would get its act together and reclaim its territory or this kingdom would take over france and transfer Burgundy to it.
The bourgois and aristocracy were already at loggerheads in the time but to add in a big of a nationalist element too....
I'd think the country would eventually end up Dutch, I doubt it could hold onto Burgundy, either France would get its act together and reclaim its territory or this kingdom would take over france and transfer Burgundy to it.
You're assuming that French or German would remain on an equal status. Personally, I'm inclined to think that one (probably French, it being the language of government and all) would become dominant, and most of the Germanic speakers (especially outside the OTL Netherlands) would eventually be Gallicised.
Of course, if that doesn't happen, than the existence of a large, powerful, multicultural nation might cause Nationalism in this TL to be replaced by some other ideology more receptive to pluralistic nations. (But then again, Hapsburg Austria in OTL never had that effect, so maybe not...)
What could ensue from Valdemars construction: An independent Lutheran Burgundy, and an independent Calvinist united Netherlands, both separated from both France and Germany.
Valdemar II
Banned
I would lean toward them not being Gallicised the Southen Netherlands had French as adminstrative language since the medieval periode, and beside the loss of some border areas and Brussel (and that only happen in the 20th century), the Flemish speakers was assimilated, and here the position of the Germanic speaking mechants are much stronger.
I don't see that as impossible either, Spain has succed to stay united, even through it home to 3 or 4 language (4 if we count Galician), while there has been some terrorism, it has been mostly a Basque phenomen. Of course we need some overreaching idealogy to keep it united, I don't see it as impossible for Protestantism to serve that purpose, especially if it's Lutheranism, which would keep them distict from the Calvinist in France (and likely make them use a Picardian bible to distinctify them more). The problem with AH was they lacked a overreaching idealogy which could serve to keep their empire together, the only thing they had in common was the Habsburg dynasty.