The Dutch in the Central Powers in WW1
- Thread starter The Federalist
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Rockingham
Banned
Its been asked before:
1:Adds naval might to the German navy(though perhaps not enough to make a difference)
2) The Dutch would provide an ideal naval base in the North sea
3)They would also be an advantage in the campaign against Belgium, perhaps bringing about its surrender/acceptance of German use as a base to attack France, or at least speeding up German progress on the Westen Front.
4) They had a pretty bad army AFAIK, but they could allow for an early German victory on the Western front with logistical backing, or economic support.
5)Dutch East indies might slow down Australain/Indian/Japanese forces bringing aid to the WF.
1:Adds naval might to the German navy(though perhaps not enough to make a difference)
2) The Dutch would provide an ideal naval base in the North sea
3)They would also be an advantage in the campaign against Belgium, perhaps bringing about its surrender/acceptance of German use as a base to attack France, or at least speeding up German progress on the Westen Front.
4) They had a pretty bad army AFAIK, but they could allow for an early German victory on the Western front with logistical backing, or economic support.
5)Dutch East indies might slow down Australain/Indian/Japanese forces bringing aid to the WF.
The best case scenario (for the central powers) is that with the use of Dutch territory the Germans gain enough momentum that they beat the French early in 1914 and force the French to the negotiation table, After which they beat the Russians and the war ends quickly.
Worse case see OTL.
Don't place too much faith in the Dutch navy at that time. It was hopelessly outdated and probably will not shift the balance in favour of Germany (or even towards a more balanced situation)
In fact, von Shliffen wrote that it is highly desirable for the success of his war plan against France to have the pass for German troops through the Dutch territory because the Belgium-Germany border is too short for the huge concentration of troops there.
Indeed. Never mind the fact that the Netherlands is a country of canals, deltas, and rivers. I'm not too sure of the capabilities of warships during WWI, but I can for sure see the RN being able to blockade the Netherlands' coast fairly easily. And if the RN are able to send some types of warships into the Zuider Zee, the Dutch are in trouble. IMOH joining the Central Powers would be too much to risk for the Dutch, especially with their concerns about their overseas territories. Nevertheless, it would make things a little bit more interesting in WWII if the Dutch lose the East Indies.
British Indonesia anyone?
(Well, Sumatra and Borneo, at any rate)Australia gets west New Guinea.
Portugal might get the rest of Timor.
Perhaps France (troops from Indochina) and/or the USA (ditto from Philippines) get some bits?
Rockingham
Banned
The CP never thought that the UK would ally against them though, presumably the Dutch though the same.
And if the Dutch thougt their was a risk of Germany invading the Netherlads, this could be considered an even bigger threat.
British Indonesia anyone?
Australia gets west New Guinea.
Portugal might get the rest of Timor.
Perhaps France (troops from Indochina) and/or the USA (ditto from Philippines) get some bits?
If the French are defeated quickly because of the Dutch entry and after that the russians (and this is I believe the only way for the central powers to win), the Dutch will not lose any colonies (and perhaps gain French Guyana and st Maarten) and perhaps they get small parts of Belgium (the whole of Flanders will probably not happen). Else the Netherlands will probably lose all colonies and Zeeuw Vlaanderen and Limburg.
Reasons are not that difficult, many people lost money due to stock losses in South Africa during the Boer War, the link with South Africa was still present in the minds. The overall tendency was anti-British. So a mall conflict (an uproar after the sinking/ attack of a Dutch ship for example) would have been enough to escalate into war, if the politicians wanted it. But in the real world a neutral position was the best solution.
The support must have been in general not in Europe, although more pressure on the Belgian front in August 1914 could have been helpful during the race to the sea, especially if the Dutch would have join the central powers just after the start of the fighting.
The support must have been in general not in Europe, although more pressure on the Belgian front in August 1914 could have been helpful during the race to the sea, especially if the Dutch would have join the central powers just after the start of the fighting.
Well it all depends on when they join the war. If at the very start, then Germany makes it to Paris imo.
However, if they join under duress say within six months, they the added manpower will certainly help and will cause more Entente casualties. Is it enough to win the war? I dunno... but the added manpower certainly makes it more feasible.
Personally; I would be very interested in seeing the military action in the East Indies. The Dutch forces there there were quite significant I believe, both in terms of army and navy. It would be very interesting to see how the war there develops and how much importance the Empire places on it.
However, if they join under duress say within six months, they the added manpower will certainly help and will cause more Entente casualties. Is it enough to win the war? I dunno... but the added manpower certainly makes it more feasible.
Personally; I would be very interested in seeing the military action in the East Indies. The Dutch forces there there were quite significant I believe, both in terms of army and navy. It would be very interesting to see how the war there develops and how much importance the Empire places on it.
worst case, the Brits use Holland to naval invade, encircle western front, occupy germany.
It may be strange, but I think that a quick loss for the central powers, would have been a better case than the slow loss they experienced during OTL, I think the loss of territories and colonies would be smaller if the British, the French and the Russian would have experienced the years of war they did OTL. Btw I doubt that such a move from the British would have been as succesful as you said.
But that ignores the British, French, American and Portuguese pressence in Southeastern Asia, all of which have territories closer (if not right next) to the Dutch East Indies than the Japanese Empire...
Rockingham
Banned
Might the Dutch be promised Flanders, West Walloon, parts of North France, Frances American Colonies, North Borneo and perhaps Malay and Singapore?
Yeah, I think that is what the Dutch might hope for (and maybe including British Guyana). I think the Dutch might be happy with the colonies (although I don't think they are worth going to war for). But I doubt the Dutch want West (or East) Walloon or French northern France. Why would they want some French speaking territories. They might want Flanders (including French Flanders), but even that I am not sure. It would completely disrupt the strange balance of power that existed in the Netherlands at that time between the Protestant, Catholic, Liberal and Socialist factions (pillarisation). With the addition of an almost completely catholic Flanders the Dutch protestants would lose a lot of political influence. Because of that the Dutch might not want the addition of those territories. Of course because of nationalism and historical reasons and maybe because the catholics, liberals and socialists see a potential growth of their influence it still might happen.
Actually I think that by adding Flanders to the Netherlands after WWI you could get a very interesting political change. Possibly worth exploring in a timeline if I wasn't certain that I am the only one interested in Dutch political history in the beginning of the twentieth century.
Not as long as Wilson was President.British Indonesia anyone?
Australia gets west New Guinea.
Portugal might get the rest of Timor.
Perhaps France (troops from Indochina) and/or the USA (ditto from Philippines) get some bits?