What if Nazi Germany got the nuclear bomb?
- Thread starter Nods
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Grey Wolf
Donor
Logically they need to get it BEFORE the USA as the first US test was not till July 1945, a couple of months after the fall of Berlin
It does raise an interesting question though as to what would have happened if the Nazis had managed to produce ONE bomb in April 1945. IIRC they had several Arado 234's they were still able to keep flying, and also some of the larger Junkers transports, so if anything could carry the thing and deliver it I guess one of those might have been able to lift it ?
The alternative is the Turtledove choice in "Settling Accounts", simply driving the thing into an enemy area and detonating it.
Either way, who would the target be ? It would be BEST for the Nazis for the target to be Soviet as they could potentially reconstruct their Eastern front if they achieved enough damage there. But that wouldn't stop the drive from the West, which I feel would continue whether or not the Western Allies thought the Germans might have more bombs. They could hardly stop by this date
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Grey Wolf
Donor
Indeed, I believe I said that
The question would be what effect it could actually have ?
If the use of a bomb against the Soviets allowed the Nazis to reconstruct a front in the East, then one assumes the Western Allies would win the race to Berlin - so would they besiege it or assault it ? Would we have Hitler killing himself in his bunker as US tanks enter the streets, and an iconic US raising the Stars and Stripes over the Reichstag image to go with the Iwo Jima one ?
Or might the honour go to the Brits instead, or even the French ?
The Soviets are going to be really rather pissed off at being nuked, and this is going to be reflected in their treatment of German POWs and civilians. With more of Germany in the hands of the Western Allies, we could see whatever parts the Russians succeed in occupying annexed to Poland, even if this includes parts of Saxony.
When the US drops a nuke on Hiroshima, are conspiracy nuts in the Kremlin going to wonder if the US gave one to the Nazis or even if the one which blasted Soviet troops was really an American plot ?
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
An Ar234 couldn't carry a nuke of the 1940s - the aircraft is too small by far.
I can see Hitler ordering the nuke(s) buried and used as mines against advancing allied/Soviet armies. He want a scorched earth strategy anyway, and no doubt he remembered the Soviets using a similar (but conventional) mine in Kiev in 1941.
I can see Hitler ordering the nuke(s) buried and used as mines against advancing allied/Soviet armies. He want a scorched earth strategy anyway, and no doubt he remembered the Soviets using a similar (but conventional) mine in Kiev in 1941.
What about the practical air allied supremacy over german skies in so late month of war (april 1945)?.
First of all the bomb need to be transported to a military airbase, after carry it in the aircraft, after the aircraft fly.. but by april 1945 the allies could practically interdict any transport movement of the germans and also the air supremacy was clear.
This naturally not means that this is impossible, only that it was very difficult, I propose at least that the bomb need to be made in february, maximum early-mid march 1945, april is too late.
First of all the bomb need to be transported to a military airbase, after carry it in the aircraft, after the aircraft fly.. but by april 1945 the allies could practically interdict any transport movement of the germans and also the air supremacy was clear.
This naturally not means that this is impossible, only that it was very difficult, I propose at least that the bomb need to be made in february, maximum early-mid march 1945, april is too late.
With one bomb? They might kill a division or two. Hardly front-reconstruction potential. Multiply that by five, or ten, and the Soviets are still coming West around the craters, and, hell, across them.
Only way: destroy London and make the allies believe that you can nuke a lot more british towns. Then maybe they will stop and let Germany fight the soviets (a fight they still would likely loose).
If they got the bomb before the Bugle, they have a chance destroying western forces on the field and then going east.
If they got the bomb before the Bugle, they have a chance destroying western forces on the field and then going east.
Negotiations and threats? I don't think so.
Let's assume the nuke is used in the East. The Soviets take 10,000 casualties (for a tactical use; or much more, but on civilians, if the Germans manage a strategic delivery). Given Stalin's attitude towards casualties, and the fact that any negotiated peace would be felt by him as leaving the wolf alive and well on his doorstep, the Soviets are not willing to negotiate. On the other hand, why should the Westerners negotiate? The price has been paid by the Soviets, and it's likely other bombs will be used in the same place. No problem with Churchill for sure.
Now let's assume the nuke is used in the West. The Westerners are much more sensitive to casualties. Then again, they are those who are about to have their own gadgets, so they will feel much less helpless. And because they know exactly what is the potential of those gadgets, their priority number one will be making damn sure Hitler is not left alone with an undisclosed number of those toys. Better push ahead now, take any further losses, and clear up Germany for good.
Of course, much depends on the time frame. April 1945, somebody said. That's when some vanguard US units were already marking time, in order not to have to fight for territory that would be handed over to the Soviets. The advance in Bavaria was neither top priority nor top speed. If the bomb is used, then all of that changes, and it's likely that the German site is overrun even before the second bomb is dropped
Let's assume the nuke is used in the East. The Soviets take 10,000 casualties (for a tactical use; or much more, but on civilians, if the Germans manage a strategic delivery). Given Stalin's attitude towards casualties, and the fact that any negotiated peace would be felt by him as leaving the wolf alive and well on his doorstep, the Soviets are not willing to negotiate. On the other hand, why should the Westerners negotiate? The price has been paid by the Soviets, and it's likely other bombs will be used in the same place. No problem with Churchill for sure.
Now let's assume the nuke is used in the West. The Westerners are much more sensitive to casualties. Then again, they are those who are about to have their own gadgets, so they will feel much less helpless. And because they know exactly what is the potential of those gadgets, their priority number one will be making damn sure Hitler is not left alone with an undisclosed number of those toys. Better push ahead now, take any further losses, and clear up Germany for good.
Of course, much depends on the time frame. April 1945, somebody said. That's when some vanguard US units were already marking time, in order not to have to fight for territory that would be handed over to the Soviets. The advance in Bavaria was neither top priority nor top speed. If the bomb is used, then all of that changes, and it's likely that the German site is overrun even before the second bomb is dropped
von kressenstein
Banned
one bomb would not win it for the germans in 45.. The germans would need a breakthrough before d-day after that its too late and i doubt that one would be enough to force the allies to the table unless the germans can prove they have more then one
How about some group of Nazis holding on to the thing and conducting a nuclear terrorist attack post-war as a spoiler?
Maybe something with a group of neo-Nazis armed with this old nuke (or perhaps just salvaging the fissile material or something, if that's possible...) seeking to badly damage the state of Israel or something along those lines.
Yes, I know that 1940s era devices were a bit big for that kind of thing, especially before containerization and everything. But just consider it.
Maybe something with a group of neo-Nazis armed with this old nuke (or perhaps just salvaging the fissile material or something, if that's possible...) seeking to badly damage the state of Israel or something along those lines.
Yes, I know that 1940s era devices were a bit big for that kind of thing, especially before containerization and everything. But just consider it.
Kaptin Kurk
Banned
They might be able to pull off a bluff (similar to the U.S.) if they had two, and any capability of delivering them in bombers still.
Bomb London with 1
Demand End to War, or One Bomb Will Be Dropped Every 5 Days...say something like we can make one every 5 days, or something.
Bomb another (Preferably Moscow) wit 2
Then say who's willing to talk...
Could work...and at the least...could get rid of Stalin / Churchill if they're very lucky.
Course, if the allies called their bluff...it'd still be all over.
Bomb London with 1
Demand End to War, or One Bomb Will Be Dropped Every 5 Days...say something like we can make one every 5 days, or something.
Bomb another (Preferably Moscow) wit 2
Then say who's willing to talk...
Could work...and at the least...could get rid of Stalin / Churchill if they're very lucky.
Course, if the allies called their bluff...it'd still be all over.
Wow imagine the Germans get the bomb before D-Day and hit the beaches of Normandy or the English coast...
I'd like you to detail the delivery systems, especially all the way to Moscow. Even to London, there's a good chance the bomb won't do much damage.
The Western Allies are somewhat late on their timetable and they shake hands with the Soviets at Remagen.
Grey Wolf
Donor
If you drop it on or explode it in the logistical centre supporting the Red Army it would be. A sensible use wouldnt be to simply drop it on the troops themselves, in which I would agree with you about the effect.
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Kaptin Kurk
Banned
Oh, I don't know if they'd be able to deliver it, but that's take Moscow and London of the list. (Perhaps they could find two submarines and send them on suicide missions alah Turtledove) But the only way I can see a small number of nuclear weapons helping the Germans, if it they get at least two....destroy major cities with them (not armies / soldiers) and successfully bluf the world into thinking they have more...at least long enough for an armistice or 'peace in effect' to occur. (After which it might be hard for the allies to get fighting started again...if say...the front is peaceful to 6-8 months.)
The details may or may not make this possible....but a Nazi Germany with the resources to produce 2 nuclear bombs by the end of 44, might be one that's in slightly better shape in 1944 as well. That'd only make since, which might mean the luftwaffe isn't completely gone yet either.....(the ability to produce the bomb wouldn't come from nowhere...afterall...the industrial groundwork would have to exist for it to be created....)