WW2 with 1950s weapons?

Would it be possible to fight WW2-like war with weapons that were available in 1950s (say late Korea or weapons that drew from lessons learned in Korea)? I'm talking about intensity, length, areas involved etc. specially ETO-like/E front (land-air, not so much navy). If national resources would be mobilised as they were in WW2 and focus on miliary production at the expense of consumer goods could they replace destroyed equipment fast enough?

Nukes are not in the picture
 
Well, who gets what tech?

Does Germany have non-nuclear 1950s tech, including jet fighters a la Starfighter and MP44s/AK47s? Do they get transistors and synthetic fuel? And do they keep their tech advantage compared to their neighbors?

What might be more interesting is "WWII where 1939 armies have 1945 tech without nukes" to the same effect
 

CalBear

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Would it be possible to fight WW2-like war with weapons that were available in 1950s (say late Korea or weapons that drew from lessons learned in Korea)? I'm talking about intensity, length, areas involved etc. specially ETO-like/E front (land-air, not so much navy). If national resources would be mobilised as they were in WW2 and focus on miliary production at the expense of consumer goods could they replace destroyed equipment fast enough?

Nukes are not in the picture

Sure. IF nukes are off the table.

Excepting nuclear weapons, there was no major increase in infantry weapon or airborne weapon lethality between 1945 & 1955. You would actually have a situation much like that which existed in 1940 in the air, fast interceptors with short legs, taking on unescorted bombers. On the ground the tanks would be bigger and there would be almost no animal drawn transport, outside of that things would be much the same. There would be some tactical changes, based on the recent unpleasantness, but overall the war on the ground is about the same.
 
Would it be possible to fight WW2-like war with weapons that were available in 1950s (say late Korea or weapons that drew from lessons learned in Korea)? I'm talking about intensity, length, areas involved etc. specially ETO-like/E front (land-air, not so much navy). If national resources would be mobilised as they were in WW2 and focus on miliary production at the expense of consumer goods could they replace destroyed equipment fast enough?

If you're talking about advancing weapons technology to the point where 1939 has 1953 levels of technology or delaying WW2 until 1953 and then fighting it with 1953 weapons you may have a problem. Not because either of those scenarios in impossible but because quite a few of the weapons used in 1953 had their origins in the lessons learnt between 1939 and 1945.

As an abstract concept, whether a conflict of the same intensity as WW2 could be fought in 1953, then I'd say yes, nations would be able to militarise their economies to the same extent. They might not produce as many planes, tanks and guns as they did in WW2 but what they did produce would fill the quantative gap with quality.
 

Riain

Banned
Without nukes to blow up the world another total war is possible at any time. I don't know how what production rates of modern fighters would be in the 50s, but they wouldn't be worse than the heavy bombers of WW2 and Britian alone built thousands of these every year in the 2nd half of WW2.
With mid 50s weapons the war would be enormously destructive, using the developed versions of everything from WW2. There would be no shortage of napalm, grandslam bombs, heavy artillery and the like thrown around the battlefields of Europe and Asia.
 
But even early jet fighters had longer range than Bf109, afaik. And the Luftwaffe would have used radar long enough so they wouldn't disregard those strange towers in the coast. It doesn't sound good for a BoB for Britain, if it develops in the first place of course.
 

Riain

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I thin much of the course of ww2 was guided by weapons capability, so with the vastly more capable weapons and techniques of 1955 the course of the war would be different.
 

CalBear

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I'd guess that the RPGs would make a big difference.


Not as much as you might think. The 1939 tanks were vulnerable to anti-tank rifles (normally something in the .50 cal/14.5mm range) to the same degree that 1955 tanks were vulnerable to early RPG's (PIAT, Panzerfaust) or bazookas. The problem was (and is) that you never had enough of them since they reduced the number of rifles in a squad, and the tank was so freaking scary that the anti tank weapon operator missed as often as not.

The biggest change from 1939 in tank warfare is the increased effectiveness of aircraft against tanks (although the difference from 1945 to 1955 is much less of an issue) and the acknowledgement by the U.S. that the best anti-tank weapon is another tank, not some dedicated (thin skinned) tank destroyer.
 
Sure. IF nukes are off the table.

Excepting nuclear weapons, there was no major increase in infantry weapon or airborne weapon lethality between 1945 & 1955. You would actually have a situation much like that which existed in 1940 in the air, fast interceptors with short legs, taking on unescorted bombers. On the ground the tanks would be bigger and there would be almost no animal drawn transport, outside of that things would be much the same. There would be some tactical changes, based on the recent unpleasantness, but overall the war on the ground is about the same.

Huh?!

Assault rifles, APCs, heavier RPGs/bazookas, and logistical reorgs increase the fighting power severalfold. Transistors, improved spy planes, and improved communication technology upgrade C3I tremendously. Tank armor is thicker and the designs are greatly refined, including the use of adapted ammunition (HEAT rounds etc.). Improved ranging and sighting technology also makes them more effective at night as IR technology is in its infancy. Synthetic technology is greatly increased, allowing these armies to stay in the field longer with more gas and supplies. Flak jackets and rudiments of bulletproof armor are starting to become known. Interceptors might have short legs but they are better in 1950s than in late 30s and the planes are much more effective (I'll take an F-84 or F-86 to 2 Bf109s anyday) Tactics have changed greatly as well.
 

Thande

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The Shattered World timeline is, I think, a good example of this. A recognisably WW2-ish WW2, but one fought with OTL-early 1950s technology (though the actual chronological period is the late 1940s).
 

Riain

Banned
M79, since all combattants would have 50s weapons they would cancel each other out to a large extent. The casualties would be much higher, especially collateral casualties and damage.
 
If one side gains aerial superiority of any kind over another country's cities, I hate to think what the payload of a couple hundred B-52s could do to an urban center. :eek:
 
M79, since all combattants would have 50s weapons they would cancel each other out to a large extent. The casualties would be much higher, especially collateral casualties and damage.

Even still, the 50s divisions are more lethal and more effective than they were in the later 30s or early 40s. That is what I was arguing.
 

CalBear

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Huh?!

Assault rifles, APCs, heavier RPGs/bazookas, and logistical reorgs increase the fighting power severalfold. Transistors, improved spy planes, and improved communication technology upgrade C3I tremendously. Tank armor is thicker and the designs are greatly refined, including the use of adapted ammunition (HEAT rounds etc.). Improved ranging and sighting technology also makes them more effective at night as IR technology is in its infancy. Synthetic technology is greatly increased, allowing these armies to stay in the field longer with more gas and supplies. Flak jackets and rudiments of bulletproof armor are starting to become known. Interceptors might have short legs but they are better in 1950s than in late 30s and the planes are much more effective (I'll take an F-84 or F-86 to 2 Bf109s anyday) Tactics have changed greatly as well.

1955, not 1965

Assault rifles? Not yet. The AK is not in general use.The early models has serious issues with the receiver (among other things). They didn't start to reach the field in any number until '56/'57 onwards. The Eastern block is still using the SKS and Bolt actions (along with the PPsh-41 SMG). U.S. is still using the M-1 (M-14 didn't enter service until 1957). The FN-FAL is entering service, but there are still LOTS of bolt action rifles on the continent

APC? Sort of. The BMP 50 is replacing the BMP 40 halftrack, but it is till open topped and the armor is more than suspect. The U.S. is beginning to deploy the M-59, but it is not in full use, most troops are still in 6x6s or on foot.

Improved Spy planes? Compared to WW II, a bit, but not very far. The Mosquito was just as capable as a RF-94 & the wooden plane had longer range. The pictures are better, but the tech to use them is barely advanced from VJ Day.

Tank armor? It is indeed thicker, and the tank guns have also increased is size and pentrating power. Aiming & firing is still very much a stop to shoot or fire on the move and pray game. The USSR has just begun to deploy the T54/55 & the U.S. is still using the M-48. The British have the best armor of the time period in the Centurion. Yes, they are better than their WW II counterparts & would easily defeat a Sherman or Panzer MK IV, but they are no more lethal to other tanksof their day than their older cousins. It wasn't until the late '60's - mid 70's that the "one shot, one kill" era started & until the introduction of the M1A1 and Challenger 1 & 2 the tank was still vulnerable to infantry weapons (and, based on some of the recent results from Iraq, may be getting vulnerable again)

Aircraft? I would rather be in a F-86 than a Bf-109 as well. Problem is that BOTH sides are equipped with 1955 gear, so the other side has Mig -15 & -17, with the American Century series just starting to come on-line with the F-100 SuperSaber. With the early jets you didn't have the range of the Mustang and air-to-air is still a gunfight. Jets (well,second generation jets) can carry a heavier load, but they also take longer to build & there aren't as many jets around, the lethality jump just isn't there, not compared to the damage that could be wrought by the swarms of JagerBomber or Il-2s of the war years. The great changes will come later, with guided weapons and sub-munitions.

Night vision? Not yet. The first practical starscopes made there combat appearance in Viet Nam. The IR of the era was crude, unrealiable and thin on the ground.

Transistors had barely begun to enter the battlefield in 1955. Virtually all radios and radar scopes still used tubes (hell, the Mig-25 IIRC had some tubes in the electronic suite up to the '70's). The miracle of modern tech, the guided weapon, has just begun to take it's first baby steps.

The biggest thing that hasn't changed in any significant way is the true killer of the battlefield; artillery. The majority of tubes are still towed, the supply train is still weak (even most of the weapons are WW II holdovers) There are still lots of 75mm in the park, with the 152mm & 155mm still semi-rare. The MLRS system is decades away, even the sub-munition won't be introduced until the late 60's (well the M-444 did come into use around 1962, but it wasn't really a DPICM).

It was only in the late '60's and later, generally much later, that the modern, almost impossibly lethal, battlefield developed. A non-nuclear war in 1955 would have been bloodier than the 1942 version, since tactics had evolved, but it would, as the original question asked, be just as sustainable in terms of ground and air combat and the ability to resupply.

This is the difference from today, where a major ground war between the major powers would be over in weeks, possibly two months at the outside. After that, the modern battlefield would be swept clean of the living and there would be no way to get new troops trainedand equipment built fast enough to make good losses.

The naval part of the battlefield was intentionally omitted by the original poster. This is, to a degree, regrettable, since it is in the naval arena that warfare actually evolved the most in the post WW II decade (and with the introduction of the SSN in 1954-58, was revolutionized).
 
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