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Old October 28th, 2007, 07:15 PM
flamelord flamelord is online now
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Colonies loose revolutionary war: effect on WW1

This is an interesting scenario that I thought up. If the american colonies had lost the revolutionary war, how would it affect WW1 and, perhaps, WW2
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  #2  
Old October 28th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Boydfish Boydfish is offline
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If the american colonies had lost the revolutionary war, how would it affect WW1 and, perhaps, WW2
I'd say that you're going to have to define "losing" the Revolt in the 13 colonies. There are simply too many factors to begin defining an answer.
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Old October 28th, 2007, 07:28 PM
Doeth Doeth is offline
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Uhm...

There probably wouldn't be one...
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Old October 29th, 2007, 07:44 PM
flamelord flamelord is online now
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Pleaser explain Doeth. And by loose I mean, the continental army is destroyed, all the members of the continental congress are killed, and morale of the colonies is crushed beyond even thought of rebellion against the ritish empire
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Old October 29th, 2007, 07:58 PM
Atreus Atreus is offline
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Originally Posted by flamelord View Post
Pleaser explain Doeth. And by loose I mean, the continental army is destroyed, all the members of the continental congress are killed, and morale of the colonies is crushed beyond even thought of rebellion against the ritish empire
What Doeth means is that the Butterfly effect means that there will probably not be a WWI, at least in a form we would recognize, if the US lost the Revolutionary war. And I agree. In terms of direct effects, the internal interests of the British Empire, and the global geopolitical situation, will radically be altered. And that is leaving out minor changes with massive effects (ex: WInston CHurchhill is a bit faster crossing a street, and the cab which hit im kills him. Lord Halifax becomes PM in 1940, and the British surrender).

And when is the American revolution defeated, and how? Long Island? Yorktown? Washington shot by Ferguson? More moderate British policies? Cowpens reversed? The American revolution is literally to full of POD's to describe. Basically, in my opinion, the Colonists won either due to divine providence, or dumb luck.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 11:05 PM
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It would have to be a big battle that destroys most of the colonial army. I mean, the colonists wouldn't give up just cause washington died. Probably a battle that most of the army is in and they loose the battle, resulting in the destruction of the continental army.

I can understand your confusion. Alternate history can be confusing. Sometimes there are too many variables.

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Old October 29th, 2007, 11:07 PM
Roberto Roberto is offline
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You mean quotes? You can either copy/paste a phrase or word from another post and put it in your post, then click the little cartoon bubble looking button. Or you simply press the quote button on the bottom right of every post.
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Old October 29th, 2007, 11:51 PM
Atreus Atreus is offline
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Originally Posted by flamelord View Post
It would have to be a big battle that destroys most of the colonial army. I mean, the colonists wouldn't give up just cause washington died. Probably a battle that most of the army is in and they loose the battle, resulting in the destruction of the continental army.

I can understand your confusion. Alternate history can be confusing. Sometimes there are too many variables.
No, I am not confused. What I was alluding to was a variant of the Great man theory, specifically Washington's role in the American army. Washington was a mediocre general at best. Arnold or Greene would have been a better commander based on merit. But Washington was the "symbol" of the Continental army. He had influence over them no one else could match. If he were killed or replaced, say by the Conway cabble, comand would pass to someone like Horatio "Granny" Gates or Benedict Arnold, who may already be a traitor. Basically, any Colonist loyal to the independence cause in a position to replace Washington would be a mediocre or bad general, and lack the morale inpact Washington's presence provided.

Again, there are many variants. For example, a British victory at Bunker Hill according to the original plan (easy enough to do, just have the Royal Navy commander bother charting the Mystic river) will be different from a British Victory if the fog does not cover Washington's retreat from Long Island, or Howe going along with Burgoyne's plan. All of these are different from a storm not giving Admiral Graves an excuse to not launch the massive resupply operation to Yorktown, which results in a massive land/sea decisive British Victory (good idea for a timeline, I amy one day do this). And if the British played smarter politics from the beginning, say with no coercive acts, then there would be no revolution.

Edit: This goe in the pre-1900 forum.
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Last edited by Atreus; October 30th, 2007 at 01:11 AM..
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  #9  
Old October 30th, 2007, 04:54 PM
037771 037771 is offline
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Saratoga and the Mystic River one are best. I have written a TL emanating from the Mystic River possibility, in which WW1 doesnt happen with Britain involved. Of course if it did, i think either:
1. An expanded British Empire might have joined the Germans, or at least actively supported them.
2. The expanded British American manpower would have ended the war far more quickly, either with a compromise peace or simply throwing so many soldiers at machine guns that the Germans cant see anymore.
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Old October 30th, 2007, 05:19 PM
David S Poepoe David S Poepoe is offline
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Originally Posted by 037771 View Post
Saratoga and the Mystic River one are best. I have written a TL emanating from the Mystic River possibility, in which WW1 doesnt happen with Britain involved. Of course if it did, i think either:
1. An expanded British Empire might have joined the Germans, or at least actively supported them.
2. The expanded British American manpower would have ended the war far more quickly, either with a compromise peace or simply throwing so many soldiers at machine guns that the Germans cant see anymore.
Why would the British Empire join the Germans in 1914?
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  #11  
Old October 30th, 2007, 05:40 PM
037771 037771 is offline
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Joseph Chamberlain proposed an alliance with Germany which broke down (dont recall the reasons). His ideas on Imperial Preference were considered, so why not an Anglo-German axis?
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Old October 30th, 2007, 07:15 PM
Prinz Richard Eugen Prinz Richard Eugen is offline
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Loss in the Revolution for the colonies would mean a continuation of small states rather than one larger country. Would they ever expand as far as - or beyond - the Mississippi? I don't see a Mexican War or the adding of northern Mexico (California, New Mexico, etc.). The gold and minerals of this area are important to industrial growth. Why would Texas give away its independence for British rule. Surely, there would be much lower immigration.

By the time of WWI, there may be a Confederation, like Canada. But, like Newfoundland, some states would opt out. Like all the other Dominions, they would send troops. but without a draft only volunteers would go. They would come in 1915 and 1916 and would dramatically increase the size and strength of the Empire's army. The added strength of their naval forces would prevent any attack by the Kaiser's fleet. But they would not give the morale boost that the 1918 US contribtion of millions of fresh troops to change the balance of the war in OTL.

Germany and her allies will put more emphasis on the East in 1915 and 1916, realizing that the larger number of troops in the West reduces chances of victory there. They force Russia into a peace in late 1916 and are able to reap the benefits of food and raw materials from the new "independent" states in the East to stave off starvation in 1918, The war ends in a stalemate.
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Old October 30th, 2007, 07:20 PM
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Edit: This goe in the pre-1900 forum

Thank you for the notice. I wasn't sure about this. I think a defeat at long island would be a good bet.

Countries can hold a grudge long, As we well know. So, if the american colonies are mad enough from their defeat then they might have joined with the central powers.

This would be the central powers do a cold war soviet union ( help you if you do blah blah blah...)If so and the central powers won we could be looking at a fascist america.

Dang I still can't do it ( the quotes)
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Old October 30th, 2007, 07:41 PM
Kaptin Kurk Kaptin Kurk is offline
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I think it depends on how large / intense the rebellion got. It it's crushed early, a Confederation / Dominion status like Canada is possible. If it's after a long and blooddy struggle, resulting in Washington being killed in 1786 and Franklin being torched in Phildelphia square...then...that's probably long enough that tensions between America and the Crown would continue to be a problem...especially if the South American states recieve their independence in time..which is a big maybe...not to mention Hatai...(what happens there?)

Either way, it probably ends up either really good for the British Empire (America's Strength is hers) or really bad (A weakened, although not crippled America, is wainting for a chance to stab her in the back, perhaps with Napoleon....although...success would be iffy still.)

Divide and conquer would remain a viable strategy, as would some form of representation in parliment, but short of these...american anger would continue to stew...
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Old October 30th, 2007, 10:35 PM
037771 037771 is offline
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Nipped in the bud would certainly result in British Hegemony (see my TL). A later rebellion might well have resulted by the British ban on Slavery. Just like the civil war, there are all sorts of possibilities. A "stab in the back" might either result in concessions, like a huge Parliament for the whole of British America, or a switching of resources to British America and a quick peace in Europe. Moreover, the British wouldnt just pass over the chance of taking Louisiana; next war with the French/Spanish and the British Army would take it easily.
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  #16  
Old October 31st, 2007, 03:21 AM
The Mists Of Time The Mists Of Time is offline
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I think there already was a thread like this in the History Before 1900 forum. Anyway, my answer here is the same as it was there.

When you say The Colonies lose The Revolutionary War, I'm assuming you mean then a situation where Brittish North America remains forever BRITTISH North America as in remaining forever Brittish Colonies.

In this scenario there is no way to tell if there will even be a WWI let alone a WWII. There is no way to answer the question that is asked in the opening post.

The United States Of America and the success of The American Revolution has had such an effect and an influence on the world and on what the world is like, and on world history since 1776 that it is impossible to accurately predict what the world would be like had The USA never existed as a seperate nation.

What would The Brittish Empire have been like had it never lost its North American Colonies?

Because it was so strongly influenced by the success of The American Revolution, in TTL there probably wouldn't have been a French Revolution, or it would have been very very different from that of OTL. What effect would that have had on the world?

Also in TTL would there be a single German nation, or would it have remained several principalities as it was before 1870?

In TTL there would probably have never been a Russian Revolution, so no Communism or Socialism as we know it.

In TTL the world even now in 2007 the primary form of government would probably still be monarchy or constitutional monarchy. Much if not all of what we would now call The Third World would still also be European Colonies.

My point is, no USA and you have politically, socially, and economically changed the dynamics of the whole world so much there is no way to answer the questions about WWI and WWII.
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Old October 31st, 2007, 05:57 AM
Baron von Feldspar Baron von Feldspar is offline
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I think this is a more interesting WI if we don't read "loose" as a mispelling of "lose". There are a lot of different threads about a the rebs losing but very few where they try to spread bloody revolution around the globe. The trick is to avoid letting the revolution be capture be the most conservative and retrograde elements. The Iranian revolution lead to the rule of the mullahs. The American revolution lead to the rule by rich slave owners.

The trick is to make Paine an American Trotsky.
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  #18  
Old October 31st, 2007, 04:52 PM
037771 037771 is offline
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But the American Revolution was instrinsically linked to the inspiration of the French Revolution.
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Old October 31st, 2007, 07:20 PM
flamelord flamelord is online now
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Wow, this thread is getting way more deep than I thought it would. But it's nice to see (metaphorically) get together to think up ideas.

Wouldn't they eventually capture Paine and hang him?
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Old November 1st, 2007, 09:23 AM
Analytical Engine Analytical Engine is offline
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But the American Revolution was instrinsically linked to the inspiration of the French Revolution.
Well, in Thande's Look To The West, the American Revoultion is avoided, but there is still a French Revoultion, which is inspired by the Corsican one.
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