Catholic Superpower

[ryan123450]

What could be the cause of a present day Catholic superpower controling all of Europe? I'm thinking of something along the lines of a temporal Emporer sharing power with the spiritual Pope. Assuming the Reformation never happened what else would need to have occured for this to have taken place?

I'm new here and just looking for help on a story idea I've had. Thanks for any help.

[carlton_bach]

WEll, you'd need a pretty big POD. No reformation is a good beginning, and you'll also take out, or at least massively alter, the direction of the Enlightenment. Maybe if you tie scientific development to a more refined, intellectualised, less dogmatic (pre-Tridentine but post-Medieval) Catholicism that coexists easily with a more relaxed, popular religious practice?

I don't know how to get there. Perhaps a different mix of Church Fathers? Fewer ascetic rigorists, more mystics and 'shepherd' types?

[Condottiero]

What about some sort of agreement in the Spanish Sucession War leading to a Union of the French and Spanish crown? Maybe is the Austrians felt that they had a worse enemy than the french...

[Alayta]

I think a political pod is not enough. Psychology is involved. Not only we have to avoid protestantism, but aswell nationalism.
We need a soft reformation of the catholic into something else.
I´d go for no black death, so people do not feel abondoned of theie shepard.

[Syphon]

Originally Posted by carlton_bach

WEll, you'd need a pretty big POD. No reformation is a good beginning, and you'll also take out, or at least massively alter, the direction of the Enlightenment. Maybe if you tie scientific development to a more refined, intellectualised, less dogmatic (pre-Tridentine but post-Medieval) Catholicism that coexists easily with a more relaxed, popular religious practice?

I don't know how to get there. Perhaps a different mix of Church Fathers? Fewer ascetic rigorists, more mystics and 'shepherd' types?

You could also try making the Jesuits the dominant RC order and more inclined to the pursuit of faith through science.
Having argued with them plenty of times while at school, I was once told that science only proves theories where GOD need no proof only belief.

The Society of Jesus was only introduced in the 16th century this might be a bit late so it might require the creation of a similar order at an earlier time to prevent the schism between the orthodox and catholics whiich might with more enlightened direction prevent the development of the protestant branch or just make it another order of the RC church.

I'm just thinking of this as I write so this might be full of holes that I'm sure our colleagues will point out.

[Hendryk]

With no Reformation, the Church may be less paranoid about potentially subversive scientific discoveries. Well, a teeny little bit less, anyway. I think a good way for the Church to take the Enlightenment in stride in the 18th century would be to make the Jesuits more influential. These guys were smart, they received advanced training in maths, astronomy, you name it; but in OTL they were mostly sidelined whenever they tried to reconcile science with Church dogma. That led to some strange situations; for example, when they tried to impress the Chinese imperial court with state-of-the-art astronomical instruments in the 17th century, they mentioned the discoveries of Copernicus and Galileo, all the while being fully aware that such theories were deemed heretical back home.
So, have the Jesuits win some key power struggles within the Church hierarchy before the 1650s, perhaps even placing a covert supporter of their order as Pope. By the time the Enlightenment takes place, the Church will be ready to "ride the wave". Through sponsorship of scientific research (and careful preemptive pruning of dangerous hypotheses, which will be made easier by the absence of Protestant lands for dissident scholars to find refuge in), the Church will remain an indispensable player of the scientific revolution, and later on the industrial revolution. It's possible to imagine Opus Dei-type lay orders gaining critical control of industries, banking, etc... Of course the Church would also make sure it retains control of education throughout the period, from kindergarten to university (in OTL, over 50% of students get their education in Catholic institutions in countries like Belgium). By the early 21st century Westerners would find Church control over society quite self-evident.

[carlton_bach]

Would there be a Society of Jesus without the Reformation, though?

Maybe the Cistercians or Franciscans could have similar potential?

[Redbeard]

I guess the PoD will have to be found in relation to the HRE - make life easier for the HRE in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the reformation is crushed.

PoD (15th-16th century): The King of France never really succeeds in controlling the nobles and the church - in effect this has France appear like Poland (IMO not that unlikely).

The absense of France as a potent player will effectively leave the HRE a free hand in Europe. I could imagine protestant societies being allowed in the periphery, but with their Monarchs being forced to swear allegiance to the Emperor.

When it comes to the question of Spanish succession in early 18th century there will no serious opposition to the Habsburgs and we can really start talking about a global Catholic superpower. The English will have a hard time fighting the Spanish backed by most of the European continent. The Dutch will probably stay under Habsburg control. Gibraltar will not stay British for long and the Med. will probably be a HRE territorial water.

The big challenge for the HRE will come if/when nationalism emerges, perhaps combined with Russia as a potent power.


Regards

Steffen Redbeard

[zoomar]

Would not the survival of the Roman Empire - or the Byzantine - acheive this?

[Arch-Angel]

With science you have to get it to the point that we (Catholics) have of it today. That it is a good thing and can further reveal the mysteries of God and show us his beauty if done in an ethical and moral way.

[Arch-Angel]

With nationalism if the Pope/Church can make a good enough argument and make everyone see each other as "Catholic" and no "German" or "Slav" or "French" then it could be avoided, replacing nationalism with with religionism.


Catholic does mean universal.

[Hendryk]

Nationalism is quite recent anyway. It appeared as a cultural phenomenon in the German-speaking parts of Central Europe at the end of the 18th century, and spread around in the following decades. As a political movement, it only became significant in 1848. With a POD in the 1400s (if you want to preempt Reformation), post-Enlightenment Europe will be a different enough place that political nationalism may never emerge at all.

[Yossarian]

How about if their was no east-west schism. With the byzantines getting along well with the pope, the europeans might manage to save the empire from islam. If the hapsburgs still emerge in control of spain (and later portugal), austria, the netherlands, and southern italy, along with the HRE in control of Germany and northern italy, you'd have a good start. An eventual dynastic union could happen between france and spain, and the hapsburg emperor (who now also rules france) could be elected holy roman emperor after threatening some princes.

By this time the Byzantines would probably be fighting for their lives against the muslims, so maybe the catholic superpower comes in to help them. The eventual border could be on the Dardenelles(sp), giving the catholics all of europe. With russia still catholic they could be absorbed, and scandinavia and britain couldn't hold out for long either.

I don't know how we could get rid of protestantism and such, but this will take care of political unification, even if it is kind of far fetched

[Alayta]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

Nationalism is quite recent anyway. It appeared as a cultural phenomenon in the German-speaking parts of Central Europe at the end of the 18th century, and spread around in the following decades. As a political movement, it only became significant in 1848. With a POD in the 1400s (if you want to preempt Reformation), post-Enlightenment Europe will be a different enough place that political nationalism may never emerge at all.

As a political movement you are right. But as a fact, it existet long ago. Look at the hundred years war. The frenchs naatinality was boosted by jeanne. Could not have been boosted if not existing.
Aswell the lusitanians and more. To join all, or even most aereas into one superpower, we should avoid even this.
Maybe a genozide at some crucial point?

[Arch-Angel]

What would this nation be called anyway? The Holy Roman Empire might be frowned on.

[ryan123450]

I can definitatly see how the Jesuits would be crucial in the scientific arena. They would still have been formed even without the Reformation, contrary to what most people would think. They were originally concieved of by thier founder Ignatius as a tool for the conversion of Muslims. They did however quickly become a main tool of the CounterReformation.

Nationalism doesn't seem to be that much of a problem to me. I agree that it would be easy to get around it by people focusing more on being "Catholics" than "French", "German", etc.

BTW, thanks for the great help.