"Not a step back": The Jacobite stand at Derby, 1745

Chris Oakley

Chris Oakley

Banned
In real life, the 1745-46 Jacobite rebellion in Scotland began to collapse when Prince Charles Stuart's forces retreated from Derby, England in December of 1745; in some alternate histories, the Jacobite forces opt to continue advancing from Derby and march toward London. But suppose the Jacobites had done neither? Suppose that, instead, they'd opted to make a Stalingrad-type last stand against King George II's army in or near Derby? What are the consequences of such a stand?
 

cerebus

My assumption is the English army would have just rolled over them. After all there was very little English support for BPC.

If the Scots are defeated further from home even fewer ever return to their families.

However if the Lairds north of the wall can see the English comming and realise BPC has lost they have more time to leave the sinking ship and suddenly "Ve Vere all in the Resistance!" .

This might limit English reprisals and keep more of traditional Scotland alive a bit longer.
 

Wozza

cerebus said:
My assumption is the English army would have just rolled over them. After all there was very little English support for BPC.
Click to expand...

Hmm, there was more support for the Jacobites in some English towns than in much of Lowland Scotland.
 

Grimm Reaper

Which says practically nothing. English support amounted to a few hundred poorly equipped men, many of whom openly admitted that they would have joined whichever army arrived first and was willing to hire them.

As it was the pathetic Bonny Prince threw away @1000 of his men because "he would have a town in England" and somehow deluded himself that the English would have no artillery to take it.
 

Nytram01

I think that Bonnie Prince Charlie should have paid more attention to Lord George Murray, the commander of the Jacobite army, who urged him not to invade England, fearing a lack of English support would weaken their cause in the south which was exactly the reason they retreated in OTL...well that and lack of support from the French

Bonnie Prince Charlie wanted to do too much too quickly and played to the English strengths while George Murray knew that the English were stronger in numbers and would beat the Jacobites in open battle and tried to play to the Scottish strengths but was constantly undermined by the Prince.

Murray was also against fighting at Culloden and favored a retreat to the highlands to fight a guerrilla war. He was again undermined by the prince in that instance.

If Bonnie Prince Charlie had left military matters to George Murray then the Jacobte cause would have a higher probability of sucess but the Prince was too sturborn and proud to listen to the best commander in the Army.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Wozza said:
Hmm, there was more support for the Jacobites in some English towns than in much of Lowland Scotland.
Click to expand...

Not in the Midlands, though. Jacobite support in England was chiefly focused in the North and in Cornwall.
 
Chris Oakley

Chris Oakley

Banned
Nytram01 said:
I think that Bonnie Prince Charlie should have paid more attention to Lord George Murray, the commander of the Jacobite army, who urged him not to invade England, fearing a lack of English support would weaken their cause in the south which was exactly the reason they retreated in OTL...well that and lack of support from the French

Bonnie Prince Charlie wanted to do too much too quickly and played to the English strengths while George Murray knew that the English were stronger in numbers and would beat the Jacobites in open battle and tried to play to the Scottish strengths but was constantly undermined by the Prince.

Murray was also against fighting at Culloden and favored a retreat to the highlands to fight a guerrilla war. He was again undermined by the prince in that instance.

If Bonnie Prince Charlie had left military matters to George Murray then the Jacobte cause would have a higher probability of sucess but the Prince was too sturborn and proud to listen to the best commander in the Army.
Click to expand...

Hard to argue with that assessment.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Trouble was Charles Edward Stuart wanted all or nothing. He specifically objected to French plans that would only leave him as King of an independent Scotland and/or Ireland; he wanted it all and all at once, not desiring to be in a weak position and a French puppet. Of course, that meant that he ended up with nothing. But I think this stubbornness is part of the same charisma that made him so successful in the short term, so one can't divorce the one from the other.
 
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